Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Thanks, Quentin and Alex for reaching out and embracing climbers, climbing, adventure, fun and life;........and not letting our race, color, background or sexual orientation (you like that one...) interfere with all or any of this;.....much respect........I believe this has been a long time coming. Maybe someday, we can take down this damn sign in Monument Valley, get over ourselves, and enjoy the challenges and adventures the awesome rocks on planet earth have blessed us all with.....I truly believe they are sacred not just to the Navajos......but sacred to us all........
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
Good post Quentin!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
That's awesome Quenton! Best of luck.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
|
Q75
Just so I'm clear, you've received verbal permission from the tribe for you and other Diné to climb on the Rez? And this applies to any non-Navajo who may accompany you?
It might be a good idea to write a letter to the editor of Rock and Ice outlining your clarifications, if you're interested...I'm pretty sure it would mean more coming from you than me.
Also, I have probably an extra rack's worth of cams and nuts, hexes, a rope and various slings, couple pairs of climbing shoes, some other gear I'll probably never use. Would aspiring Diné climbers be interested in this stuff? I'd love to help get more of you climbing, and this gear is just sitting here.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Ron;....sorry you can't embrace the positive side to this story;.......maybe step back a bit, give it a break, and revisit later with a different and more positive take;.....i don't know;....just a suggestion........I honestly believe Quentin and Alex are moving in a wonderful and positive direction;.......sorry you don't feel that way......
Here's the story behing the rebar;........(maybe this will help a bit.....).....
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/round-rock-s-e-side/105960676
As For the 1000 bolted FAs in joshua tree.....about 700 of those FAs would be trad climbs with no bolts placed........
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Ron may lack in subtlety but he makes valid points.
Can't we all just get along?
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
|
Todd, youve done well over 1000 BOLTED routs in JT alone. Wanna see the Navajo lands the very same? JT now has trash, graffiti and theft problems.
I didn't interpret anything TG said as wanting to see Navajolands turned into another J Tree. Think you're barking up the wrong tree here Ron.
Also don't think TG's bolts are responsible for the problems you listed.
The potential environmental and social impacts of opening the Rez to climbing are worth discussing though, climbers aren't necessarily the ecology-minded people they once had the reputation of being, and sport climbs do seem to attract a different kind of climber.
This is why guys like Quentin and Alex are so important: to act as guides and liaisons who can educate visitors about the aspects of climbing there that are unique and special.
Not to get too far ahead here but I think the assumption that ending the climbing ban would automatically result in a resource-damaging free-for-all is a bit cynical. This type of overuse can be avoided. Anyway it's their land and they can do what they want with it, ban climbing altogether, grid bolt it and charge admission or anything in between.
Finally, I don't see any sport climbs in TG's photos, just a bunch of sick ass hard desert aid and spire bagging.
|
|
10b4me
climber
|
|
Just curious Ron. What has trash, and graffiti, in Joshua Tree got to do with bolted routes, in Joshua Tree. What is the correlation?
|
|
Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
|
|
Fluffy,
As far as Dec 2013, we were verbally told that we have been approved to be certified along with financial assistance from the tribe. All this will go to future youth programs and also on my personal part, other programs that target the youth whether it be through the local Boys and Girls club, any Youth Development programs whether it be thru the Nations own programs, church youth programs and even through the Special Ed. programs that Alex passionately works for.
We are still waiting for the letter at this point to give us the go ahead. We would rather wait for that rather than jump the gun and possibly jeopardize all the hard work we've put into it.
Also if you feel as though you can contribute to the cause, I will gladly take you up on your offer. We have had some support from other climbers as well that do have sponsorship and we can use any extra gear you're willing to donate.
I have a rack of cams, nuts, slings, as well as ropes and harnesses along with shoes but definitely I'm still limited in taking any one out. Just two weeks ago, I took out my 15 year old daughter along with her friends and you should've seen my niece climb and climb her hardest in some Chuck Taylor's all because I don't have the right size shoes for her. That in itself is far more rewarding than accompanying any climbers out on the real hard stuff.
I hope all goes well from this point too and I will consider writing something to R&I as well.
I've also posted this thread to my Facebook wall and so far, I've had nothing but support from fellow tribal members that do see my point of view and agree that we need programs that target our youth.
There is far too many just roaming the streets without any ambitions, goals and even fatherly figures without having to deal with the hardships of addiction.
I feel as though I can make that positive mark in my tribe. I too almost fell victim to the crap shoot of alcoholism as well as drug addiction but I persevered and I'm alive and sober.
We all need to look beyond ourselves especially to the young ones and be examples of what we can be without all the strife addiction brings.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Thanks Todd for sharing those incredible photos of an inspiring land.
You deserve an immense amount of respect and admiration from the climbing community for your ability to rise above these issues which haunt us. You are not the sort of person that most people hack upon. I'm sure that when you were doing these ascents on the Navajo Nation, some two to three decades ago (when there were hundreds of thousands less climbers), the locals recognized that you are a unique, powerful man and they granted you some special privilege. I am sure they saw you working with their children in their community and could understand your strength.
Q75: I'm pleased you have found climbing and that you are a champion for the cause with your people. I'm with you in your statement that you hope this article did not upset the people you have been working with to open up the climbing on your home lands. R&I has a long history of controversial headlines designed to inflame and hurt people. It is how they sell magazines as they struggle to survive in a dying industry.
I've said it before but it bears repeating. Climbing on the Navajo Nation is not like climbing on Federal Land (USFS, BLM, NPS). On the Navajo Nation, unlike Federal lands, you are climbing in peoples' back yards. And often these people feel a deep, spiritual connection with the earth, one which few of us white folks can even begin to imagine or even understand. I sincerely hope that climbers who choose to visit and climb these lands tread very carefully and with deep respect for the people they encounter.
It is curious to see all the responses to this thread which represent a wide spectrum of the climbing community. On the one hand you have the "Jacksonian View", which believe in rugged individualism in which self-worship is only in competition with the love of money. These folks tend to believe in Manifest Destiny and in man's domination of the natural environment. Persons of this belief give the impression of spending many long hours in front of a mirror, with one middle finger aimed squarely at the past and one aimed scornfully at the future. Money and fame is what drives these people to rock climb.
Closely aligned with the Jacksonian View is the Vanity Club (a.ka. the Mountain Projectors), The leadership of this gang also spends much time in a room full of mirrors and share the Jacksonian view that nature is a force to be conquered. These type of people view climbing in terms of numbers - the more points one scores the greater the legacy they hold in their community. The only value nature has is that it is a force to be used as a vehicle for shameless self promotion. These die hards despise adventure climbing, the only real climb is one in which every move, every handhold, every piece of protection has been extensively documented. In part because of their competitiveness, these people seek to destroy the concept of "adventure climbing".
Both the above views tend to hold land managers / owners with little regard, particularly if a dollar can be made (Jacksonian) or a point can be scored (Vanity Club). Interesting to note the strongest, most dangerous and vocal members of these two clubs reside in the state of CO.
On the other hand you have the "Authoritarian Streakers". These sorts of folks tend to respect and strive towards establishing positive, working relationships with the people whom own the lands upon which they recreate and recharge. These persons typically have a more holistic understanding of the world and work to conserve climbing for today and the future, while showing respect for those who came before. Some are nostalgic in that they tend to long for the good old days, when the world was a simpler place with a lot less climbers and a lot less publicity regarding these special areas.
Anyway, some food for thought as we struggle towards meaning in this stupidly addicting pursuit called climbing.
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
how many more copies of the mag did this thread just sell for them?
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Cool post, Albert....very well said with some interesting ideas.
It made me think of my past experiences on the Rez;.......I remember freely roaming around my "neighborhood"...just like everyone else who lived out there.......everyone in my town of Lukachukai knew I was a teacher. They knew I lived in a hogan, I rock climbed, I didn't buy rugs over $20, I would give people rides when they needed it, I didn't have any valuables in my hogan, I didn't loan $ to anyone except the Wheelers (my aide in my class), and I drove my car like a maniac. They knew I would take in any dogs and feed them, that I smoked Marlboro cigarettes and I would share a smoke anytime....they knew I didn't have a gun, they knew I liked kids, and that I was pretty much harmless and friendly. They knew I didn't drink and didn't have any booze at my hogan. Most of all, they knew I sort of "fit in" out there, and that I liked living, working, and climbng there, and that I was in no big-ass hurry to leave or bail out on my job, the kids in my class, and my community. No one in Lukachukai looks upon rock climbing in a bad way, and I seriously doubt if anyone knew it was "illigal"....if it even was illigal. As you can imagine, it's very remote and isolated on the Reservation;...especially smack dap in the middle where I was. I believed that exploring, hiking, and climbing was a God-send for me;......it kept me motivated, up-beat, happy, healthy, strong, and content to be living in a mud house, away from family and friends, away from normal "dating" (whatever that is...), and I felt that I belonged there and I was supposed to be there. There were times I got homesick, depressed, tired of the isolation and felt lonely and "trapped" in a vaccum of sorts;....and yeah;..times I wanted to just say "fuk it" and pack up and move back home to Mommy and Daddy.....but I had responsibilities, ties, and work to do in my community, and I had some bad-ass rocks to climb...... In the two years I lived on the Rez, I never once saw another person rock climbing, I never felt like I was "trespassing" or being "bad"...and only once was I shooed away by a landowner. This idea and concept that my climbing was pissing ANYONE off in my community just didn't exist;....and when I read posts about it on the internet;...I don't get it. It wasn't that way at all for me. Not at all. When Navajos saw us climbing or driving near their houses or hogans..they usually came over and talked to us and we always told them we were climbing and they always seemed stoked. .....so;....the comments about pissing off the locals;......not true in my case;...not at all. I'm sure there are disapproving Navajos out there;.......I didn't met any.
After I climbed Spider Rock, I somehow got ill (was it realted to the climb.......hmmmmmm;...you never know...).......but my aide in my classroom said it was because I upset spider woman.....here is an account of that experience............
http://joshuatreeclimb.com/Stories/prespyderrock.htm
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Todd that is wonderful insight into your time out on the Rez. As I noted earlier, you are an exception to the rule when it comes to climbers, and men in general.
Interesting story about your ascent of Spider Rock. Some years ago, along with a few of my Anglo buddies we decided to follow in the footsteps of the ancient ones on part of a prehistoric rite of passage in a major canyon in NAZ. We basically got our arses handed to us along the way, running out of food and water, heat illnesses, etc. Anyway, after getting lost a few times we made it out of there, only to have one of the vehicles break down, one man had a major disagreement with his woman, and a couple of us were rather sick (puking, diarrhea, etc). The only one with no problems, or at least never any mention of them, was our Dineh brother who accompanied us.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Aside from the Jacksonian View and the Vanity Club are those who do as they please and never leave a trace behind them to betray who did what and and where. This is how we used to operate in "no climbing" zones. Completely on the sly. Never mentioning anything to anyone.
We always had complete respect for the environment, and never left so much as a cigarette butt. What other people said about it was never our business because we never hung around to talk.
The thing about areas where climbing has been banned or regulated is that the people in charge always want to be included in any conversation per who is doing what, and where. That's simple territorialism - a primitive but powerful force. What's more is the idea of ownership of natural resources, and divine right to same.
These were always the forces at play when we used to burgle climbs as teenagers, and it always made it very exciting to climb on the sly like that. Forty years later it's amusing how we get ourselves worked up over all of this, but one thing remains the same: Everything vectors off the people out there doing stuff.
Meanwhile I'm just talking. Perhaps the most delusional thing at play here is that this (my) talking should and can legislate what free people will do. So long as the environment is treated as something sacred, the rest of the issues might just be between my two ears.
JL
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Largo thank you for the wisdom you have shared with the climbing community for decades.
Edit: remember the rule of the fight club?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
i dont recall that guy shooting at us in the high desert wanting to talk about it
nor his buddy down in temecula
---
Climbing "on the sly" means not being seen. The gunplay is the territorialism I mentioned and the belief in ownership. Tresspassing. But stolen waters are sweet, as they say.
JL
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2014 - 12:00am PT
|
These were always the forces at play when we used to burgle climbs as teenagers, and it always made it very exciting to climb on the sly like that. Forty years later it's amusing how we get ourselves worked up over all of this
Forty years later and there are 1000x more climbers and a completely different set of circumstances. Sure it's romantic to reminisce about some innocent teenagers stealing an ascent of some forbidden spire but the fact is this is unsustainable behavior to begin with and much more so with the groundswell of popularity the sport has seen.
I love the stories and pictures of stolen ascents as much as anyone but to suggest that this is the way to get it done is reckless, irresponsible and misguided. If folks want to do it, that's up to them. But the icons of this sport have to recognize these aren't the glory days anymore. Romanticizing illegal behavior, especially in print, opens a huge can of worms that others are trying to keep a lid on. Yeah you got away with it, victimless crime right? Until you start telling everyone about it...
The future of climbing on the Rez isn't going to be under cover of darkness, and those climbers that decide to do that are selfishly jeopardizing access for all climbers including the handful of Diné.
As for who owns the land and if it's really sacred or not that argument is a non-starter. The Native Americans are exempt from this hair-splitting because of what our ancestors did to them. It's their land, let them decide what to do with it. Until they allow us to climb there take your privileged white ass to any of the other million rocks you can climb legally.
|
|
Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
|
|
I'm down with Largo on this.
I've lived in Kayenta for 5 years now. Practically every time I've roped up out here it was to do FAs in obscure corners. Chances of running in to law enforcment are slim. I'd be more worried about the locals. My partner is Navajo. She'll tell you. "There's some wild indians out there". In fact, I'd seriously consider carrying a firearm in certain areas. Or, just don't go there.
Couple months ago I got confronted while hopping a barbed wire fence on the side of the highway. I was just returning from one of the little bouldering areas I frequent. This Navajo dude flipps a U-turn when he sees me. Its just me and my dog. The dude had been drinking, I could smell it. Had his wife and kid in the truck, no car seat. He basically threatened me. Told me he lived "over there". Mother f*#k wouldn't let it go. I finally gave him a 20 and slammed my door in his face. I not so sure he really lived "over there". Might have been different if mommy and baby weren't there.
Haven't been back to that area.
Monument Valley? I bet if you offered enough $$$ you could peak their interest. Otherwise, I haven't wanted to risk getting busted and possibly losing my job to climb the Totem Pole, as classic as it is.
Look man, just like everywhere else, governments are corrupt, tribal, chapter, and township governments included. Respect the locals, make it worth their while and everything will probably work out fine. Then, all you have to worry about is the choss . . .
|
|
Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
|
|
Todd thats awesome! in alot of ways not much has changed! People are still intrigued when they see us climbing. thanks for sharing your experience in LA!! it reinforced all the reasons i live on the rez.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!