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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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I think a lot of the problem is just that it happened the first time. Kids committing suicide is not new. not even remotely. And most of the time it has to do with a great perceived injustice in the world.
Going down in a blaze of fire taking many others with you focus all kinds of attention on how you were wronged.
Take a girl dumping you as an example. The boy is hurt and wants to make the girl realize how bad he is hurting and to make her hurt that badly. Rather than killing her he kills himself and many others, knowing the attention it will shed on how badly she wronged him and make her feel incredibly small and guilty. It's a ploy to attract attention to whatever injustice you perceive, and each one has to try to outdo the previous unfortunately.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Nice. Sarcasm. That,ll win em over.
Hey, how many of you actually give a sh#t about why a student would go into a school, guns blazing?
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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oh look, more sarcasm. Is that what passes for wit and logical debate these days? Man, I have just GOT to jump on that bandwagon!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Brace yerself for an onslaught of corporal punishment and child abuse sarcasm there Ron.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
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You know what happened there right? A few irresponsible as#@&%es beat their kids so bad that we passed reactionary laws- the ones you refer to as being prohibitive of discipline.
Cue the remarks.
But dont worry, when it comeswto gun control, theres no way we,d allow some over-restrictive legislation to pass!
Cue more remarks.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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But its THE KIDS that have perpetrated the last 4 shootings at schools. Not responsible adults
Well, we're talking about an irresponsible law-abiding ADULT who performed this last one. 18 years old, and bought the gun legally himself. Luckily Colorado doesn't allow him to buy semi-autos with high capacity magazines, so he bought a shotgun, and didn't kill anyone but himself.
This is another tragedy, but it could have been so much worse. And Ron, I grew up with guns too, I brought guns to school and nobody questioned it, but I learned the meaning of responsibility. You clearly haven't if you don't realize that insisting on your "right" to sell guns to total strangers is not a responsible action.
TE
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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Interesting- just read Robbins account of growing up. Doesnt seem like he got trained much for anything til he joined the scouts. And by many of the accounts of early climbing careers ive read here, seems more like y.all were left to live and die more by luck than by design.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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Interesting- just read Robbins account of growing up. Doesnt seem like he got trained much for anything til he joined the scouts. And by many of the accounts of early climbing careers ive read here, seems more like y.all were left to live and die more by luck than by design.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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18 is a KID, by any standard other than a law. ESPECIALLY in this new age.
An 18 yr old of the 1950s was a whole other person..They werent coddled and kept FROM the dangers of living but rather trained in the art to survive it all- early in life.
That is a steaming pile of horsesh*t.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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Yes, just more anecdotal evidence that the life and times of Ron are the one and only true reflection of the world we live in.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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Is that what you tell shooting victims, Banks? That their experience is just anecdotal?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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"An 18 yr old of the 1950s was a whole other person..They werent coddled and kept FROM the dangers of living but rather trained in the art to survive it all- early in life."
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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Yes Ron, its all anecdotal. You make a statement that kids these days are all a bunch of coddled p*s while back in the day kids were taught to be tough and survive. And to support your claim, you offer up some story about kids not knowing how to change a tire. Great evidence to support your claim, I'm convinced, case closed.
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JonA
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 17, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
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Yes Ron, its all anecdotal. You make a statement that kids these days are all a bunch of coddled p*s while back in the day kids were taught to be tough and survive. And to support your claim, you offer up some story about kids not knowing how to change a tire. Great evidence to support your claim, I'm convinced, case closed.
Speaking of being coddled, I still get a kick out of the term 'play date'. The comedian Louis CK jokes about being 8 or 9 and walking around downtown like some dude while his mom worked. My situation was silmilar.
Fast forward to today and I don't believe anyone still lives like this. Kid's time and activities are all planned out and kids can never escape the great cell phone umbilical cord.
I'm no psychologist, but it all just seems so unnatural. So many of my life lessons were learned playing in the woods with my buddies, getting into fist fights, taunting other kids (and later feeling bad about it), shooting squirrels (and later feeling bad about it).
Kids these days are learning their life lessons alone indoors playing violent video games.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
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These aren't kids Ron.
In Sandy Hook, the perp was 20. In Aurora, the perp was 24. In Virgina Tech the gunman was 23. I'm guessing today at Renown the shooter was also an adult.
In fact - from http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map
The killers: More than half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (12 and 20, respectively); the other 30 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, and religious and government buildings. Forty four of the killers were white males. Only one of them was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was a mere 11 years old. Of the 143 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally.
edited to add that is a worthwhile link for anyone that has an interest in this stuff.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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I feel and concur with your rage, DMT. But what is really going to work? I think you are on the right track with the self-regulation idea, but I also think that too much focus has been put on "legislation" that is probably not going to go anywhere or actually address the underlying problem.
I believe that we should think more in civil rather than criminal law. For example, you said that gun shops and even manufacturers should be held accountable for selling guns when they had good reason to be suspicious. But let's talk civil liability rather than criminal. Imagine the victims' families civilly suing a gun shop that they believed was negligent. A bar owner can be sued if his bar continues to serve drinks to a patron that has apparently had too much (and who then goes on to be involved in a fatal accident). So, let's lower the bar for what counts as a "negligent" gun sale.
Another advantage of this approach is that it is much easier to prevail in civil than in criminal court: "preponderance of evidence" is a much lower bar to clear than is "beyond a reasonable doubt." AND, you would probably find that juries would be very sympathetic. And it wouldn't take very many well-publicized suits before gun sellers would sit up and take notice!
Just an idea that could start to work tomorrow, with no new legislation needed, and that would basically force gun sellers to "self regulate," as you said.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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A nice little fatal shooting where I work today at renown hospital, Reno. Let's go hit a nursery next! And kill all the Ficus?
;)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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or the accidents that would follow.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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or the accidents that would follow
ROFL
Bad... very bad!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 29, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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Man shoots himself in butt at HomeDepot.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/12/28/responsible-gun-owner-butt/
On December 26, 2013, an unidentified man was checking out at a Home Depot, in Brighton, Michigan. When reaching for his wallet, he accidentally grabbed his gun instead. The gun went off in his pocket, shooting the man in the butt.
The man was taken to the hospital to receive treatment for the butt hurt.
The police were called and the ‘responsible gun owner’ was taken to the University of Michigan Hospital, where he was able to have the bullet removed from his butt.
As it turns out the man had a permit, and the loaded gun in his pocket was perfectly legal. Since no-one else was injured and no damage was done to the store, police say they won’t be pressing charges against the 32-year-old gun owner.
Getting shot in the butt a common problem among ‘responsible gun owners.’
Like the Nevada man who shot himself in the butt, after accidentally dropping a loaded gun in a movie theater. The gun landed under his own seat, sending the bullet upward, into his own rear end. While such incidents are becoming more and more common, the reason that story drew national media attention was because the incident occurred in a movie theater, less than a month after the Aurora theater massacre.
Nothing says ‘responsible gun owner’, quite like a bullet wound to the butt. It doesn’t have happen because you mistook your gun for your wallet or because it fell out of your pocket, either. As it turns out there are a whole lot of ways to get yourself shot in the butt.
A Labrador Retriever shot a man in the butt.
For instance, an Arizona man thought taking a three-year old out target shooting was a good idea. He left the loaded rifle where the toddler could then pick it up, and shoot him in the butt. He’s lucky that kid didn’t kill him or accidentally harm himself.
Then there was the responsible hunter who left a loaded weapon lying around on a hunting trip. The man was shot in the butt by his hunting dog.
The real problem is that innocent bystanders get shot too.
While it’s fortunate that no-one else was injured during the Home Depot catastrophe, there have been many similar incidents which did result in injury to others. For example, last year a Walmart shopper in Waco, Texas accidentally mistook his gun for his wallet, just like the Home Depot guy. The 52-year-old shopper shot himself in the butt too. During that incident however, after the bullet went through the butt of the ‘responsible gun owner,’ it ricocheted off the floor, hitting a woman and her 5-year-old daughter, sending both to the hospital.
Common sense gun measures can help reduce the number of ‘responsible gun owners’ who shoot themselves in the butt and elsewhere.
In spite of the NRA hype over the president’s plan for sane gun control measures, it’s clear that putting some of the proposed policies into effect would reduce the number of accidental gun injuries in the US. The plan would include money to be used for educating gun owners on how to safely store, handle and carry guns. It would require gun manufacturers to improve safety features, maybe even making them so that they don’t go off when dropped and can’t be fired by three-year-old kids or Labrador Retrievers. Instead of putting more guns in the hands of more morons, we need to pass these and other common sense measures.
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