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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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this may sound narcissistic, and it is.
Yes. It is.
Turn those words around. Are you willing to say to your wife,in front of your children, that
 You have witnessed and admire HER progress as a person?
Praise HER efforts and accomplishments as a mother?
Recognize that the family needs HER. Immensely?
Tell HER you love her and will fight to keep her?
every last ditch effort that ever was in our family,
has been on my shoulders, begging for forgiveness in front
too many judgmental eyes.
That is utter, drunken-eyed, bullsh#t, Norwegian. Every effort... REALLY? What do you think the response would be if you added THAT little gem in with your demand to be hailed king? (I don't suggest you include it - I actually suggest you keep your trap shut about how great you are.)
You know what I think, Norwegian? I think the sobriety attempt(which you have not maintained) is hard. Maybe harder than you expected even possible. And I think your idea is really a camouflage to blow it all up. So that you can go drown in the booze and woe is me, fabulous me, yourself to death.
Here's the thing, Norwegian. It's an AA slogan, but it's pretty applicable the world over: What others think about me is none of my business.
The one who is judging you so harshly is your self. You're so busy pointing the fingers at others, thinking they are judging you, but it is really you judging them.
I am sorry to be the bitch with the balls enough to say it, but it's got to be said. Or you will not survive. And we need you to survive. And so does your wife, and so do your kids.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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No - not because he uttered "f*#king kid" and then Blammow.
Look. I am a drunk, and I'll always be one. No matter how many days I go without alcohol. It takes one to know one.
Alcohol is the medicine for a pain within, a pain that is still there, and always will be, for me. Like many medicines, alcohol has serious side effects. But, as they also say in AA. You can take the alcohol out of the alcoholic, but the Ick is still inside.
I see through the sh#t Norwegian's been posting over the years. This is not about one little line in one little post. But it IS a suggestion he avoid stepping into the GIGANTIC pothole in the road ahead of him. A pothole that he snuck out at night and dug up, and then intended to conveniently forget he did it.
For what it is worth, I think Norwegian has many fantastic qualities and has an incredible amount to offer. But his lantern's burning dim and he blows the flame to make it look a shining bright. Eventually, his lungs will give out if he don't stop with the flame fanning and tend to the coals.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Yesterday I saw 7 pychotherapy clients. 5 had parents who were alcoholic or addicted. The other 2 had a parent who was narcissistic. Parental behavior affects children.
I've never met a parent who got out of bed each morning thinking of how they could mess their kids up, it's usually the opposite, and yet, we Do mess them up, mostly because we won't take responsibility for our behavior. (And then we teach them to take responsibility for their behavior, what a mind-f@#k.
If you've made a mistake and intimated that your child is "f#ckin" anything, go and apologize to your child. Let them know that you were tired and stressed and that it had nothing to do with them and that you will be trying to work on that, although this kind of change is very hard for you, because you love them that much.
So often parents do not repair. And more often, parents do not address what changes need to be made so they won't take their sh#t out on their children. Children are patience-busters, for sure, that doesn't mean that they should shoulder the brunt of our lack of patience, especially when no effort has been exerted to let them know it isn't them with the problem but you.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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my other 2cents:
I've known some very kind, high functioning alcoholics. I've known some very low functioning depressed individuals. Humans come in all types it seems.
For now, if you leave alcohol out of the equation, it is one less variable, if you are looking for a solution. Also, pragmatically, the man probably wouldn't look kindly on it either. Stopping for your family was a good bit of work.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Hey Weeg
Old man down, way down down, down by the docks of the city.
Blind and dirty, asked me for a dime, a dime for a cup of coffee.
I got no dime but I got some time to hear his story.
My name is august west, and I love my pearly baker best more than my wine.
More than my wine - more than my maker, though hes no friend of mine.
Everyone said, Id come to no good, I knew I would pearly, believe them.
Half of my life, I spent doin time for some other f*#kers crime,
The other half found me stumbling round drunk on burgundy wine.
But Ill get back on my feet again someday,
The good lord willin, if he says I may.
I know that the life Im livins no good,
Ill get a new start, live the life I should.
Ill get up and fly away, Ill get up and fly away, fly away.
Pearlys been true, true to me, true to my dyin day he said,
I said to him, I said to him, Im sure shes been.
I said to him, Im sure shes been true to you.
Got up and wandered, wandered downtown, nowhere to go but just hang around.
Ive got a girl, named bonnie lee, I know that girls been true to me.
I know shes been, Im sure shes been true to me.
The shape it takes could be yours to choose
What you may win
What you may lose.
Good luck and keep your sh#t straight.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Chuck, I have followed this latest turn in your path and I see it as one you have chosen. I respect that. In the process, the adjustments that need to be made are not always clear. This is part of the process. Be sincere in your intent and the doubt and the guilt will have no room in your heart.
And those hands... I see a message that you need to do as much with your heart as you do with your hands. You already know how to do this. You are the Norwegian.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Good observations, happigrrrl and Daphne.
I especially like happigrrrl's observation about symmetry - how Norwegian should acknowledge his wife's efforts as well. It's part of completing self-awareness - putting yourself in the other person's perspective.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, ... more good input for you norwegian...
as to daphne:
If you've made a mistake and intimated that your child is "f#ckin" anything, go and apologize to your child. Let them know that you were tired and stressed and that it had nothing to do with them and that you will be trying to work on that, although this kind of change is very hard for you, because you love them that much.
So often parents do not repair. And more often, parents do not address what changes need to be made so they won't take their sh#t out on their children. Children are patience-busters, for sure, that doesn't mean that they should shoulder the brunt of our lack of patience, especially when no effort has been exerted to let them know it isn't them with the problem but you.
we are all rooting for success for you family, :)
life may be a hard sea, but with the 'many life-rafts' here,
we hope you can be mastering this sea, come storm, or rocky shores...
'captains' have to work hard, to get there, and the skills are precious...
you will be thankful for all you can accomplish, one day...
a step at a time... (if you slip due a certain 'lesson' REPEAT that lessons, or, it will just be worse down the line--THEN build up to next lesson...
yes, though, study ahead for the newer lessons on the horizon, but don't get too much to handle, as you move ahead...
keep asking for help if you need it... :)
(family table talks, and sharing, and all that is a good 'end of day'
sum up, as well)... good places to forgive, and repair things too...
edit:
say, after reading things from happiegrrrl, too...
i can add this:
many times the reason one parent may 'seem to always make the other' look bad, norwegian, is that it is built up, and done after years of frustrations at not seeing promises or changes met... and then, the other parent feels 'torn down' and 'send frustration at hearing this' right back to the other... dis will only see a fight, here...
like a ping pong game... volley after volly...
that is why having a table time to sit and talk, like a peace-table... or a little circle outside to sit down in and share, helps...
step in, or sit down, with leaving the 'emotions to cool' off to the trying to WIN and see what is wrong in the game-play and see if it can be solved in some other way, or tackle one weakness at a time and see if everyone can be allowed to help--however, then, everyone will have to agree to listen and 'stop and start' over, in making these new habits, if something goes wrong again...
instead of game volley--you get co-operation and be on the same team...
and volley as a couple, against world hardships, etc...
just a bunch of thoughts for you to bat around... :)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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~40 is too late in life to fumble the ball. That's all I have to add.
Life is short, the ocean vast.
Go fix your sh#t, get the ball back, keep moving forward.
Love the AA comments. If that's what you need, then get the f*#k in there.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Ya, I told my wife that 36 w/2 kids is too late to start playin for the other team. Lotta good that did! I've been traded!
But that's ok, I'll be reaping the benefits of this newfound freedom soon enough!
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Lambone, You will realize a couple of years down the road that.. ..36 is young... Wishing you much sweetness after this painful walk is finalized with your wife....
Some incredible observations from Happiegrrll... Daphne and Neebee....
Norwegian, For your families sake, i hope you get it right......
Best wishes all....
edit: Lambone, In the first sentence i wrote, i am only talking about your age. Second sentence, after your divorce is finalized..I wish you much sweetness.... .
saludos..
nita..
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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F that, I'm realizing now and letting go of the pain she's caused me! As I turn away from the darkness light surrounds me from all directions...
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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^^^^^^. Uh? Don't get that at all. There's been some pretty direct hard core messages laid down.
Enabling is hardly equivalent to an "I understand" post.
Susan
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Happie states a strong truth. And Daphne for the kids. Both stated with compassion and care. Alcoholic thinking appears to me deep, destructive, defensive, narcissistic, isolating and blaming of self and others no matter how smooth and creative it looks on the outside. Love does not live there. It seems to me when one truly loves one's mate, one's family, one will throw away the egotistical self importance and the damaging thoughts and behaviors, not the love for one's mate because it cannot accommodate the negative, egotistical thinking or cure one's own "ick" ( the infinite denial of "I love you, but..") be brave enough to allow trust to grow so you can keep your family intact, Weege, yourself included.
honor to your insight, Happie, pm sent
thank you for your work in the world, Daphne, catch up with you soon too
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Nita,
Didn't mean to come off sounding agro toward ya!
All I meant was I'm not gunna stew in misery for two years like I have read so many stories from left behind spouses. I'm taking life by the horns and embracing all the good things I still have without my ex, which are many...and I have more time and freedom to explore them now!
Not denying that the feelings of sadness and loss will come and go for quite a while. Usually they are triggered by seeing my kids pain as they get handed back and forth.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Lambone, good for you!!.. . I wasn't offended , i just think you miss understood what i was trying to convey ...And all i meant was...You are only 36, which is young... After you get through signing the paper.....The year ahead is all yours......
ps..I think we understand each other now...(-;
Cheers....
and
Best wishes..
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Very much appreciate the kind thoughts.
Honestly it's support from online friends on the Taco and the LBS forum I'm on that have gotten me through the darkest of times.
My gratitude is overflowing.
And Daphne, thanks for the recommendation to go see Will. He's been my main mentor through this! Amazing man, like an old wise tortoise.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Lambone, it is so cool to see you posting up with a bright outlook towards the future. Cheers to you for being strong. I wish you much happiness going forward. Similar to what Nita is getting at, it only gets better from here on out!
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Lambone, you are very welcome. It always feels good to help and to hear that Will was a match makes me so happy for you and for him, for he gained a wonderful client.
Happie, you rock.
Nita, you too
Neebee, as per usual, your wisdom born from your life experience is shared with loving kindness.
Mo--It's Snowing!!! Next time you guys do a weekend at Kirkwood will you give me a heads up? I'd love to get out there. Will miss your mid-week fabulousness. Ive got an Epic pass that is still unused.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Hey, Daphne,
I continue to be grateful for your referring me to Katherine.
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