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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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Didn't Steve Schneider put up a safely bolted route next to the Bachar Yerian?
People do the BY because it is still a sort of feather in the cap. I suspect that Shipoopi's route gets more traffic.
This is hopeless. We grew up climbing slabs with little pro. Today they grow up climbing steeper stuff and it is far harder. If they only knew how easy these old 5.10's and 5.11's are for somebody that strong. Which reminds me. We used to say that you could climb at Quartz if you could do one pullup. It is all about balance and footwork. When Fire's came out, it made a big difference on some routes.
The popularity of Indian Creek is evidence that they can learn to place gear.
I just feel rotten that all of our favorite routes as youngsters are now considered too run out and scary. I can't yack beta with the young hard climbers. They have better stuff to do with their time.
Hedge: I never saw a bolt stance skipped due to heckling. Those routes were far more desperate for the FA leader. Climbing up and down and soft peddling a slimy dish while trying to get the bolt in. For us, and most runout routes, it is the lack of bolting stances that dictates how runout the route is.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
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Hedge I'll keep doing new routes ground up and onsight for as long as I want and when some sac less POS adds bolts to em I'll chop em. That's just how it is. I don't care if you don't like it.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Haha yeah I chop retro bolts.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
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Those that climb a retrobolted route can never know how they have been shortchanged.
Someone else made the decision for them.
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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I'm no lawyer but I thought bolts were considered abandoned property. Not really sure why either FAists or retrobolting advocates are so adamant about them.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
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Go for it but good luck getting down. I'm not to worried. Most sac less POS don't chop bolts
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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Yo, its Friday night in merika, anyone want to do some blow?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
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You won't do sh#t but wine and bitch
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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Don't young climbers laugh at old grown men arguing about how they did it back in their day .......
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 13, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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not as hard as old climbers watching youngins climb these days !;-D
yeah, I think that element has changed.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 13, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
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You 2 sound like the old birds in the peanut gallery from the Muppet Show.
... this sh#t ain't gunna snort itself
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:00am PT
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The gate swings both ways....
I guess if I don't like some over bolted clip-up I can go up and chop some to make it more interesting.
Should I talk to the FA party or just get my fork, crowbar and epoxy?
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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Just a quick appreciation that granite_girl's perspective as a moderate-climbing non-yos-local is pretty important, since it represents by far most climbers in Yosemite. Why does it seem that there are few well-protected moderates, and that most of the good ones are dangerous? Because that's right? Because most of the routes she wants are not in the guidebooks?
Supertopo doesn't really serve that huge market any better than any other guidebook. It's a big opportunity for someone.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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I'll chop em.
And how do you propose to do that when you're 65, 70, 80-something, or dead? You won't. Which is why there is no "law" of the FA. The current generation will dictate what happens. As it should be, since they are the ones using the resource, not some greybeards reminiscing about when they were hard between sips of their metamucil.
I personally don't advocate changing those routes, and have chopped some retrobolted routes myself. There are surely proud runout adventure climbs and plenty done by people actually climbing at their limit when establishing them or on terrain where stopping to drill was simply not possible.
But there is a large element of truth to what Hedge is saying, Dingus as well. Plenty of runout routes established by people purposely skipping stances and installing those runouts well below their ability level, creating death routes for anyone not climbing way above the level (and sometimes for those who are..rockfall, bird flies by, thunderstorm breaks out). The idea that they were "mastering their mind" is a f*#kin' joke. I free solo stuff a couple numbers below my limit and there isn't fear, otherwise I wouldn't be up there without a rope in the first place. To act like a 5.13 climber is "mastering their fear/mind" on 5.9 terrain they routinely solo is comical at best.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:46am PT
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Sh#t dude, and what's with these f*#king boulderers - I mean some of those routes are higher than 15' !!! Those motherf*#kers need to start adding bolts too. WTF!!!
Hedge - get on this sh#t - rally for the cause!
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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I feel like this conversation is worthless without specific examples. As it is, it's just arguing and posturing over endless hypotheticals and abstractions. So here's one for you.
In 1984 John Bachar free soloed a line up the black streak to the right of Magical Mystery Tour. He called it Solitary Confinement 5.9X. According to Don Reid, it's one of the best 5.9's on the dome, warranting 3 stars. The only other 3-star 5.9 on Fairview is the Regular Route. In fact, it is one of only 9 3-star 5.9's in all of the Meadows in his guidebook, which includes Crescent Arch and Crying Time Again, which have been upgraded to 5.10 in the Supertopo guide. Keep in mind that he had established the Bachar/Yerian three years earlier.
So, here's the situation. You have one of the best climbers in the world, at the peak of his ability, who solos a route far below his level, which happens to be one of the best lines at that grade, on the biggest dome in the Meadows. Now anyone who wants to enjoy that line is expected to follow suit and risk their life in order to do so.
Does this make sense?
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 14, 2013 - 12:53am PT
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We need to turn this:
into this:
Placate the masses!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2013 - 01:18am PT
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anyone who wants to enjoy that line is expected to follow suit and risk their life in order to do so.
That's right tough sh!t.
Climbing was never intended to be a sport spirit soul killer for the masses with endless blabbering, yammering and bullsh!t.
But the general masses wall mart crowd moved into the relm and made it their property now with draconian controls.
It's all yours now and you can have it.
You get what make out of it.
The rest of us have moved on.
Cya ......
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Sep 14, 2013 - 01:21am PT
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I did a FA at Joshua Tree back in the 80's (Black Ice 5.10b R) with one bolt.
20 years later a friend and JTree local asks me "Hey, that's a great little route, but nobody ever does it, too scary, mind if I add 2 bolts?"
I say sure. So my friend retros in 2 bolts.
Then another JTree local chops 'em.
I always thought the "rule" was that if you ask the first ascent team and get permission, then it's OK to retro bolt a route.
So my friend retros the bolts back in, again. And they get chopped again. Now the route is back to a single bolt, with a bunch of scars. Go figure.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 14, 2013 - 01:26am PT
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Kids now days simply have no respect for their elders accomplishments. Seems to me I heard that before, when was it- let's see about 40 some years ago-hmmn.
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