Guns, Waiting Periods and Anger

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Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 7, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
OH, and speaking of absurd arguments. When the 2nd Amendment was written, the guns were muzzle loaded matchlocks. Even the Colt revolver and repeating rifle came half a century later. Glocks and AR-16's?

I am so tired of hearing this ridiculous argument. Anyone who says something like that just shows their utter ignorance of history and logic.

The truth is, many Americans before, during and after the Revolutionary war, had the best, modern military rifles you could buy. In fact often the guns carried by the Minute Men, who were American civilians, were superior to those of the British army. The British used the smooth bore Brown Bess and the Americans had the "Kentucky" longrifle, which was much more accurate.
So the argument could be made that the founders believed in being able to own rifles that are as good as the military has.

Next you are going to tell me that freedom of speech or freedom of the press doesn't apply to the internet because the internet didn't exist in 1791. It's the same logic.


BTW, the Revolutionary War started because the British tried to disarm the Americans and were coming to confiscate their weapons from the Lexington and Concord Armories. It wasn't about taxes.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Thanks, Shack. It's good to hear somebody else but me (and at times Ron) disabusing the "other side" of their ridiculous logic. Not that it will change their minds. But, again, perhaps the lurkers....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 04:53am PT
Or that the Founders never intended the Constitition to be altered.

Not the principles! That's why the Constitution contains so few specifics, as, for example, the type of "arms" are never specified. And in writings like the Federalist Papers we can get very clear insight into what they were thinking about the principles, such as, for example, what the "militia" is and what its purpose is. There we can see that the principle underlying the right to have and bear arms really is so that the average person can be equipped for both self, local, and national defense.

Once you see this principle and how they thought about it, you see how ludicrous it is to claim that they "only saw muskets" and would never have wanted the average citizen to have automatic weapons.

They wanted the average citizen to be fully and capably armed, and that means with the weaponry of the era (whatever era); as self, local, and national defense is impractical if the average citizen is pitifully armed by comparison with the in-principle threats.
lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Aug 8, 2013 - 05:58am PT
I walked into academy sports and left with two 9mm handguns and 500 rounds of ammo in about 15 mins. I hope that rubs a liberal or twos the wrong way.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
The truth is, many Americans before, during and after the Revolutionary war, had the best, modern military rifles you could buy. In fact often the guns carried by the Minute Men, who were American civilians, were superior to those of the British army. The British used the smooth bore Brown Bess and the Americans had the "Kentucky" longrifle, which was much more accurate.
So the argument could be made that the founders believed in being able to own rifles that are as good as the military has.
Or the argument could be made that when the best, modern military rifles you could buy fired one or two shots per minute and that any able bodied adult or child could run beyond the effective range of those weapons in less time than it takes to reload, that the founding fathers felt that the the personal and common defense benefits outweighed the social cost. Modern weapons massively change that risk/benefit equation.

Next you are going to tell me that freedom of speech or freedom of the press doesn't apply to the internet because the internet didn't exist in 1791. It's the same logic.

A perfect example of limits to all rights, you do not have a right to free speech when it endangers the lives of others, the right to keep and bear arms should be no different.

And in writings like the Federalist Papers we can get very clear insight into what they were thinking about the principles, such as, for example, what the "militia" is and what its purpose is.

Conveniently forgetting that the Federalist Papers were opinions and propositions written by a select few of the founding fathers, in order to persuade others. Where such views were not incorporated into the Constitution, it may have been because those others did not agree. We don't use the Republican Party manifesto to judge the constitutionality of Roe Vs Wade, why would we use the Federalist Papers to judge the constitutionality of waiting periods, background checks, magazine limits?

TE
Bowser

Social climber
Durango CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/video/video-armed-jewelry-store-worker-fights-off-rifle-wielding-armed-robbers-in-scream-masks/

Going to the range today too. :)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Conveniently forgetting that the Federalist Papers were opinions and propositions written by a select few of the founding fathers, in order to persuade others. Where such views were not incorporated into the Constitution, it may have been because those others did not agree.

And those very "opinions and propositions" were the ones that actually won the day.

Can you give a single example of a principle espoused in the Federalist Papers that did not make it into the Constitution?

Did, for example, the "militia" in the Constitution refer to some other, very different entity or body than it does in the Federalist Papers?

Show your work!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Lots of stuff in the federalist papers didn't make it in to the constitution. Just read them both. In any case it doesn't matter what the federalist papers say.

Gun restrictions were common and widely accepted at the time the federalist papers were drafted and the constitution ratified.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
I've got a PTW91 that I need to put a laser on today.

Why would anyone want a handgun that takes a 30 round (H&K) 7.62 x 51mm magazine?

Well,... I'm working on that, but he likes his big brother, the HK91.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Toker...I read where Slidefire now makes a "Slidefire stock" for Saigas... I am wondering if it will fit my Saiga 12? Now that would be wild...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Lots of stuff in the federalist papers didn't make it in to the constitution. Just read them both. In any case it doesn't matter what the federalist papers say.

"Show your work!" No, instead just a bunch of hand-waving. I actually have read them both, many times, and taught university-level classes on them both.

No more fluff... tell me one specific principle that didn't make it in. "Lots of stuff" is laughable.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
See, the problem is: you guys don't want to talk PRINCIPLES. You cling to the idea that whatever transitory practical "application" suits your fancy at the moment should trump the principles.

So, if you don't like a certain set of present statistics (damned lies), then the principles are right out the window.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
My Saiga 12 fires fast enough!!!

(I got a 20 too)



I just bought a Slidefire, but haven't put it on an AR yet.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
I'm pretty sure this didn't make it into your sacred amendment:

(re the milita)

Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
If you are looking for more lulz, may I suggest reading madbolter1's dissertation. Divine command theory... bahahahaaaaaaaaa. Almost as useful as a dissertation related to the effects of fairy dust on garden gnome neuro-chemisty.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

A good stab at it. Citation?

Problem is that this isn't a principle; it's a particular practical implementation of a principle. The principle concerns what IS the militia and that fact that, as your own passage reads, it is important for it to be "properly armed and equipped."

Now, you COULD derive from this passage (and others that are more explicit on this point) the principle that the militia should be well trained. The interesting question, then, would be whether or not the IDEAL of it being well-trained could legitimately ground a LAW requiring a certain training course before an individual could get a gun.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Toker.. a Pistol in 308 would be sweet. I have a plr-16 with a 100 rd beta mag and a Drago with a 75 rd drum...Why would anyone want one in 308 cal.? because I can, This is America and no NL socialist lib is going to tread on me..
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Not to get all blue book, but here you go:

The Federalist No. 29 (Alexander Hamilton).

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 8, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union “to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress.

If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

etc etc etc
-Hamilton, FEDERALIST No. 29

Sounds like principles to me.

Thanks OTEASTD
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 8, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
If you are looking for more lulz, may I suggest reading Richard Jensen's (madbolter1) dissertation. Divine command theory... bahahahaaaaaaaaa.

Looks like we got cyberstalker on our hands.
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