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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 26, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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There is skill and artistry in placing removable protection. It is part of the game. When everything is a clip-up we will have lost something important.
I will never forget tying off knobs in Tuolumne and the Needles. Hope routes like Nothingness and Eternity never get extra bolts.
Edit:
LoL Locker!
I got no problem climbing clip-ups and do it all the time. I just think there are different experiences that need to be preserved.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Jul 26, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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Let me know if you want it back to its original state. IM out west for a bit.
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ChrisWeidner
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
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I should have made more of an effort than I did to contact Thom Byrne for permission before I added bolts to Archangel. I apologize for offending so many people over this.
I did ask many locals and contemporaries of Thom (including Bob Horan, Pat Adams, Bruce Miller, Joe Mills, Taylor Roy, Matt Samet and many more) about Archangel's history. To everyone I spoke with it was a mystery, and the one thing that everyone agreed with is that it would be great if somebody cleaned it and made it a safer lead. "Safer lead" is obviously subjective, so by no means am I implicating anyone I named with supporting exactly what I did.
This is what I actually did:
There were a total of 7 bolts and 2 two-bolt anchors on Archangel before I touched anything. The last bolt and top anchor were on a blank wall, too far to the right of the free climbing (at least free climbing that's not at least 13+) to be of use. This is just one reason why I believe that Archangel -- as it was equipped -- was never freed.
I removed the top anchor and placed a new anchor about 15 feet to the left, at the logical end of the 5.12 climbing. I also removed two old (one buttonhead, one old 3/8" with SMC hanger) bolts. I then placed 10 new 3/8" bolts. Ultimately, I added 8 protection bolts and replaced two. This is Archangel.
I also placed two bolts above the Archangel anchor and a higher two-bolt anchor, thinking that I could free an additional 20 feet of very thin rock. After several attempts I realize it's too hard for me right now. I'm happy to leave those bolts for others to try, but I'm just as happy to remove them and the anchor if that's what locals would prefer. My two additional bolts plus the two original "off-route" bolts are what I called the "stray" bolts.
I easily trundled two very large (100-pound plus?) and loose flakes off the route my first trip down it on rappel, and I cleaned many smaller rocks and flakes. To me, the route seemed unnecessarily dangerous without serious cleaning.
All of the bolting and cleaning was done on rappel.
One commentator asked what was wrong with top-roping, and I say nothing is wrong with it. But even if you rap in from the top of the cliff Archangel leans too hard to the right to TR it safely (that is, without an enormous swing, possibly into rocks) without at least 6 or 8 protection points. And in this case most would have to be bolts.
Again, I'm sorry for not trying harder than I did to contact Thom Byrne and ask his permission to add bolts to Archangel. If it turns out that he did free it in the '80s and if my actions are even a fraction as repulsive to him as it seems they are to most on this forum, then I will immediately remove all of the bolts I added.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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LOCKER... so if your in a "confessions" mood: Please tell us what you know about DOUBLECROSS????
This is the best topic on the Taco right now. I just love the back and forth...
The venting of long pent up anger, distrust and hatred.
Me thinks that SmellyGoat and BigBobD'A have something between them that is not good.
I do agree with DMT on this being a "LOCAL" issue.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
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Thanks Chris for your side of the story! Now we just need to hear from Thom.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
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No big whoop Chris, thanks for checking in, they don't call it Bolted Canyon for nothing.
Sorry about the "gayer than a bouquet of penises" crack, it was directed more at your writing style than your love of dicks.
Cheers!
Eric
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
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Thanks Chris for setting the record straight. Once again I do not care that the route received hopefully its final engineering and perhaps It's first free ascent. Also thanks for talking to Bob H. As I figured he might have given it a go on gear. Thanks again.
Just to clarify when I stated that "it was not that scary to us".....where Mission and I got to on the route was approx. 20 ft. From the present anchor, to that point and on the antique gear we were using it really did not seem like an x-rated climb. We backed off due to a combination of a lack of decent pro and insufficient climbing skills.....I.E. we were WEAK!!!
As for the negative comments by our "anonymous coward" known as JLP.....until you sack up and try to lead the climb in question from the ground up ,on trad gear(as I have) and reach my high point (approx. 20 ft from the new anchor) I suggest YOU STFU .
Also as a side note of all the posters on this thread it seems Chris and I are the only ones who have been on the pitch in question and have firsthand knowledge of the climb.....except I was on it about 26 years ago. Peace and fuk-nes Steve Sangdahl Now Puke!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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Chris: Again, I'm sorry for not trying harder than I did to contact Thom Byrne and ask his permission to add bolts to Archangel. If it turns out that he did free it in the '80s and if my actions are even a fraction as repulsive to him as it seems they are to most on this forum, then I will immediately remove all of the bolts I added.
We may disagree on the role of 'safety' in climbing, but much respect for that post.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 26, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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Thanks for posting up Chris... Very cool to hear the retro-bolt story from you directly. Not everybody in your situation does the same--lay out what you did and why, and offer to make it better if things are not what they seem. That's standing up.
I'm still curious about a couple of things... It doesn't seem like the route, in the state in which you found it, had much of a chance of being previously freed (loose rock, funky bolt placements). Before getting on it, what did you think the story was with the old reports?
How does linking the pitches add a ledge-fall potential--is it as Joe says and a result of not clipping the P1 anchor? (Just curious here, that seemed like an odd note about linking the pitches.)
If there were opportunities for natural pro, would you have placed fewer bolts, or do you think the route climbs better as a pure sport climb? There's a 5* climb in the Meadows of the same grade that has both bolts and natural gear for pro, and that gives it a lot of its character. But I also know that when you're racking mostly draws, the tendency is to not want to worry about bringing a few pieces for one or two placements. So I'm curious if the idea of a mixed bolt/natural pro climb is something you considered (knowing that folks had previously tried to free the route with gear).
Dingus is right--this is your area and getting flack from non-locals is, in a way, out of order. Still, we're all passionate about our sport (obviously), and we're all interested in seeing it grow in positive directions.
Cheers,
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jul 26, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
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Good post by Chris W.
Sadly we are all locals on the Internet.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Jul 26, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
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I'm not local, but it would amaze me if a well known climber would re-equip a route without doing a fair amount of research and determining what people thought of re-working some dusty, nearly forgotten route. Otherwise there would be hell to pay every time he showed up at a crag, shop, gym, whatever. Do you guys really think this dude is that stupid? I don't.
I personally wish trad was getting less popular here.
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MisterE
climber
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Jul 26, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
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Chris, thanks for owning up. Checking with the first ascentionist before retro-bolting is a real sore spot to most of us who would even consider it.
Hell, I asked permission from Alan Watts to add a bolt on Karate Wall years ago, got it - and it was chopped within a year.
Carpe Diem but check in with the FA
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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Good job Chris, way to jump into the middle of stuff here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2013 - 08:54am PT
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Apparently Chris's apology here was not accepted by one Mr. Long... see mp link from OP.
You guys need to take notes, your tirades are chicken scratch compared to his old man steeze. Time to up your game trad dads.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 28, 2013 - 10:03am PT
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I don't know the story about any of this. But that chris guy had the balls to speak up and present his side eloquently in a straight forward manner. Hopefully that will be the start of the talks that end in a fair, equitable solution to all of this.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Jul 28, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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The modern climber seems obliged to create routes for consumption rather than sport.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 28, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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[quote]
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 28, 2013 - 07:03am PT
I don't know the story about any of this. But that chris guy had the balls to speak up and present his side eloquently in a straight forward manner. Hopefully that will be the start of the talks that end in a fair, equitable solution to all of this.
[/quote
Well we are still waiting for Bob's explanation on why he blew off the big book at Neptunes of first ascents in Boulder Canyon and went with the second ascents listed on Mountain Project for his guidebook.
NBD all in all, just asking why Bob feels the need to not research local resourses when writing his guide, lazy, incompetent, I guess we will never know until he answers the question.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 28, 2013 - 10:45am PT
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Jaybro....the Chris guy is one straight up dude. 5:14 b sport climber and damned good at trad also. Writes a climbing column for the Boulder Camera. I was with him in Iran and Tajikistan two years ago and he was delightful to travel with.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 28, 2013 - 11:23am PT
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Good job Chris, way to jump into the middle of stuff here. You're an ass. He repeated nearly verbatim what was originally posted on MP.com, nothing new. Why didn't you repeat some of the things you said about him?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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John Long flames a prominent Boulder climber after he apologizes. Does that make it better or worse?
Relationships are more important than rock, bolts, retrobolts, 25 year old routes.
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