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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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Dingus,
look at it this way: These huge uncontrolled fires burn everything in their path, ok?
But say you are talking about a forest consisting of a climax species of red fir, or sugar pine, or jeffrey pine. A 100 foot tree, depending upon elevation, is several hundred years old.
I've often read and heard that a natural fire cycle is less than 20 years. So the bigger trees are able to survive that, and keep growing, and have been through many fire cycles.
But not if the regular small fires have been replaced by massive ones of enormous heat, which comes through every 50 years.
There will be NO trees older than 50 years.
The shade that a larger tree generates prevents the growth of invasive species. With less shade, and without smaller fires to clean them out, invasives have a chance to become established in forests that would naturally have kept them out.
The outfall of that is that the natural "pure" stands of old growth forest is being replaced by mixed forests that are not natural.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:10am PT
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^isn't the policy (at least on FS lands) to let naturally started fires burn (other than structure protection) and suppress man-caused fires?
Not so simple. This is left to each forest to determine. On the Sierra NF, where I work, there is considerable tension over this. The Wilderness guys want to let fires burn in wilderness. The fire guys want to put everything out. That is a constant battle.
Outside of wilderness, everything gets put out.
ALL human caused fires get put out, no matter where they are.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Middle-of-Nowhere, Arizona
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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Another example of an invasive species, as the result of fire, is the poodle bush. That thing has taken over the burned areas in the Angeles National Forest. Oh, and if you contact it, the results are similar to the effects of poison oak.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 23, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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ron is a bit over the top in the one-size-fits-all rhetoric, but there is a lot of forest in cali (and elsewhere in the west) where fire suppression or logging are the only viable alternatives.
in some places, the fuel load is so high, and the infrastructure and topography so messy, that no one trusts control burning. san jacinto is probably one of those areas. and the really sad thing is that no one i know in forest science believes that the big pines will come back after the next big fire. it's too warm now, and the fires are going to be too hot and too fierce. when the big pine forests burn in much of socal and the southern sierra, they are likely to ge replaced with cedar and oak scrub.
that forest up there is the one where i first studied forestry and game management. it's been very sad watching it over the last twenty years. and it is one of the places where a lot of folks in fire science think that suppression or mechanical thinning are about the only options. i don't know the numbers, but i'd hazard a guess that selective logging there would have to be heavily subsidized.
a good deal of the logging in the sierra is pretty well done, especially in contrast to the clearcut/plantation practices still popular in the pacific nw. some of the work along 108 has been really nice. and control burning has obviously helped a lot up there.
george gruell's re-photo project on the sierra is worth owning and reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Sierra-Nevada-Forests-Interpretation/dp/0878424466
gruell's position on burning is a bit different from ron's. he argues that we need to do a whole lot more. and he's probably correct, although control burns are always risky, and the electorate doesn't understand fire science, doesn't want to, and prefers the unknown risk of coniferous time bombs to the inconvenience of a smoky weekend.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 23, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
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Nothing to offer Dingus, other than ask another question.
What happened at Phantom Spires after that area burned? Was it left to its own devices, or managed? I'm assuming it was left alone.
I'm curious too.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 23, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_savannas_of_North_America
At low altitudes in the Rocky Mountain region, large areas of Ponderosa pine and Douglas fir had an open park-like structure until the 1900s. In California's Sierra Nevada area, frequent fires kept clear the understory of stands of both Ponderosa pines and giant Sequoia.[9]
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 23, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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Drift...
Dingus, have you ever been to the "Hoist Ridge" down below the Generals Hwy
right at the Sequoia and Kings Canyon NP boundry???
All the Giants were cut down, plantation style pine trees were planted and even those cant survive because of the low elevation and the heat associated with that.
The giant stumps are still there, but no ferns, and its hot and covered with Manzinita (sp?) hard to believe that it was very much like the Big Tree part of Sequoia at one time.
___
I am very happy that the forrest above Humber Park didn't burn and that the rains came when they did.
Answer to prayers.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 23, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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hey there say, x15x15, oh my... i am so glad to hear that these grandkids are able to come back and enjoy an area they love...
thank you for sharing 'life behind the scenes' of all this...
i know a life-time friend of mine, whose sister lives NEAR some forest in the boulder creek, think it is, area, of middle calif, and she worries as well as the family themselves, about what they'd do, if faced with sudden fires, there...
thanks again...
also, ps:
i have not clue about to burn, or not burn, or whatever the recent discussion is, :( hope it gets a bit smoother for all the participants, :)
hope the fire season settles soon... i highly respect those that fight these things, :O
will try to go back and see how everyone did, through this...
i just can't right now, :(
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 23, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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hey there say, dave kox... thanks for sharing about your friends and the link...
oh my, there is so much to learn about what, where, when, etc, as to burn or not to burn...
hard stuff to fully get a handle on, i reckon??
thanks for all the shares folks...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 23, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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I’m no fire expert, and certainly have not fought one (as many here have.) But I did follow, and have continued to observe the aftermath of the Station Fire, which burned in the San Gabriels in 2009. While the fire was burning, crews which were accessing the southern perimeter of the fire via fire roads which originate in Monrovia Canyon Park and elsewhere around here were often found resting and refreshing or preparing to deploy both in the park and sometimes at the local Pavilions Market. I talked to these guys pretty frequently, and what I learned about the fire, and later saw for myself after it was over, was that in the steep canyons on the north facing sides the fire created vicious updrafts which created intense heat which burned the large stands of huge oaks and old growth fir to dust. Not even a trace of the stumps could be found after the fire. These were the finest forests in this part of these mountains, and due to an unusually hot fire they are gone, probably forever.
Then came the rainy season and the erosion and slides. Today the fire roads and trails I hike are mostly repaired, and there are various grasses and bushes getting a foothold in the canyons, but the big old forest really took a hit. Of course these north side areas cannot be seen without quite a hike so most people around here don’t have a clue what was lost…
All I am trying to say is that when terrain, weather and fuel come together to create a super-hot fire the landscape can be altered forever.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 23, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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At the end of the day, the forest will grow back if allowed to naturally progress. I don't buy the conventional wisdom that suggests these big wildfires are so hot as to literally leave behind scorched, infertile ground. I've seen it play out too many times, now. Seen it first hand... the ecosystem returns and does so in a fairly well understood progression. It IS part of the fire cycle.
Haven't seen the damage first hand, but this may be a different story where it is actually scorched earth; there was just so much fuel up there. It would be interesting to see some photos of the aftermath. Anybody have any?
"At the end of the day"? Maybe in a couple of hundred years. I guess the upside is that several million pine bark beetles got the chop.
edit: in less arid ecosystems I would agree with you.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
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As I understand it trees with enough access to water have the sap needed to restrict pine beetle entry. If we go so far as to assume this is valid, then severe pine beetle kill may mean conditions are too arid. And if they are too arid for the function of a mature tree with a developed root system, what challenges face a seedling?
This is why I posted about the need to change the way we use old growth forests. While in grade school a century ago, I read that Germans go into the Black Forest, cut some of the under story and manually carry the debris out. To protect the mature trees and manage new growth. There is much new knowledge about fire behavior and there is a lot of knowledge about what trees require. May be this knowledge needs to be combined with the muscles of those who love their forests.
Here.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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I'm glad that this fire was stopped before too many homes burned or people were hurt or killed.
DMT wrote:
"But at the end of the ... period? Those forests are going to burn, sooner or later. The notion that huge wildfires did not occur prior to modern fire suppression just doesn't hold water with me. The notion that a gioven patch of forest would burn 'every 20 years'? Ludicrous."
Anyone interested in fire history in Western forests should read some of the research done by professor Walter Covington from Northern Arizona University. In the Ponderosa Pine forests of northern AZ, one of the most lightning rich areas of the country, research suggests that most all of the land burned with regularity, through low intensity ground fires, every 5-20 years. (Simply put, cattle grazing and fire suppression and human settlement have removed much of the grasses which carry fires). In contrast, Dr. William Baker from University of Wyoming suggests that large scale, high intensity fires (such as we are seeing today) were not uncommon in the past.
I am not a forest scientist, but have spent many years of my life in pursuit of wildland firefighting. I am not sure there are any simple solutions or one model fits all forests, but I do know that if the climate continues to warm, we will see more intense, longer lasting fire seasons.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:07am PT
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The Town Crier had some (online) text and photos of the Mountain Fire "city". Impressive the resources put in to fight this fire. A cafeteria/cantina, temporary accommodation, showers, toilets, a medical team, - like a little town. Pix of personnel in lines waiting for food, pix of the facilities that were/are put in place, etc.
Impressive, logistics wise, personnel wise and just plain sensible.
EDIT
TGT, that link to the Fire Aviation interview about the 747 was very interesting and very informative. TFPU.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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"I read that Germans go into the Black Forest, cut some of the under story and manually carry the debris out. "
This process was done all along Hwy 74 & 243 about 5-6 years ago, in an effort to create a barrier, and to reduce 'ladder' fuels that would ignite the tree canopies. It took months, was very expensive, and 6 years later...the chaparral has returned to nearly half it's original size.
Theoretically, this seems to be a useful strategy, but it doesn't seem to be a very practical solution.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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Theoretically, this seems to be a useful strategy, but it doesn't seem to be a very practical solution. Haven't read this thread in a while but I'm not sure I agree with this. If the chaparral has reached half its original height in 5 to 6 years, then you need to repeat the process every 10 yrs. or so, maybe a little more or a little less. This does not sound like an onerous burden, at least if we're talking about doing this just near occupied areas. Certainly not a walk in the park, but not a severe effort given the pleasure of living in the mountains.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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If the chaparral has reached half its original height in 5 to 6 years, then you need to repeat the process every 10 yrs. or so, maybe a little more or a little less. This does not sound like an onerous burden, at least if we're talking about doing this just near occupied areas. Certainly not a walk in the park, but not a severe effort given the pleasure of living in the mountains.
I read that nationally there are 200 million acres that need to be thinned, there is currently funding for thinnging 3 million acres. I doubt that ratio will change, even with a progressive president in office. Defensive space around homes is much easier to create and maintain and can be the responsibility of the home owner.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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"If the chaparral has reached half its original height in 5 to 6 years, then you need to repeat the process every 10 yrs. or so, maybe a little more or a little less. "
If I understood jstan's position correctly, he was suggesting that using the thinning management strategy used in the Black Forest might be useful in western forests. The cost, effort & time that was necessary to manage the brush solely along the Hwy 74 & 243 corridors could theoretically be applied to the overall forests, but given the tremendous cost, and the fact that it re-generates in short order, seems to make that an impractical solution.
(If I remember correctly, the original impetus for that clearing project came after the disastrous San Diego county fires, and was later heavily supplemented by 'stimulus' funding.)
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