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FGD135
Social climber
Boulder Canyon Colorado
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I used to get my mail down at the Eldo Post Office when I worked for Paul Ramer up by the Dyno-mart in the mid 1990s--even then, there were many times that parking to get mail was difficult, with the very few others that were eating at the little cafe, or shopping at Bob Culp's annex. I just don't see how there is any room whatsoever for 20+ climbers to park in that lot as it exists at the present time. Or anywhere in that vicinity.
When the park first opened, there was a small tent campground nearby, but that was closed when the park absorbed the land in question--or perhaps the Iron Hand (Boulder County) shut it down. I think the campground was run by the estate? It provided at least a few sites for climbers.
The opposite end of the state park, up by the visitor center, would be a much better location for a campground or some kind of bunk-type AAC Hostel. Iirc, talking with staff, the Iron Hand refuses to allow any camping in the park. If it were possible to build a hostel in that location, there would be some additional traffic thru the SP, but at least it would not be clogging the parking in "beautiful downtown" Eldo, home of the Volvo graveyard, etc.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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has the Eldo resident's petition been posted here?
there is a lot of unhappiness over the AAC's response, but we haven't actually seen the text the evoked that response.
Perhaps pitbull or Janet would post the text....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Janet has attempted to frame the issues, she has written extensively about why she thinks this is a poor decision by the AAC, but mostly arguing the economics of that choice.
To my way of thinking the AAC and it's planning committee, which ultimately have to answer to the AAC membership, have the responsibility of creating a viable proposal and executing it… it's their calculation to do and to explain.
Janet has intermixed some of the external factors which have to do with the community. To summarize:
1) inadequate parking;
2) the loss of a school bus stop at that location;
3) the opposition of "80%" of the neighbors;
4) the presumed disturbance to neighbors by the use of the "backyard" of the hostel by the visitors.
The rest of the issues she has raised are the practical issues the AAC has to resolve to be in compliance with various local ordinances and should not concern the community (presumably the local bureaucracy decides if owners are compliant with codes and regulations).
Addition insight into the potential neighbors' opposition comes from Mark Donovan's post:
1) potential loss of property values in neighborhood;
2) the danger represented by an estimated "700+" transients to the community, especially to the children of the community.
In almost all the posts opposing this proposal, the attitude of the AAC has been called into question. Yet it seems that the primary reason for the unhappiness with the "attitude" is that the AAC has continued to pursue the proposal.
The AAC is fully within its right to pursue the purchase of any privately owned property anywhere. And having complied with the local ordinances and regulations, to use the property as it sees fit for the use of its members. (This is a tenet of the "western property rights movement", who is arguing for the current owner's right to sell this property to a willing buyer, which the community wishes to block?).
It seems that the good people of Eldorado Springs are concerned that climbers are a bad social element and should be barred from their community. It's hard not to get that impression from what has been posted here.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Hi ED,
Here is a the petition and response from Eldo/AAC and you can also go tochange.org under mike reynolds gardiner, ny to see a petition from 2012 from the residents of Gardiner, for PIPC, AAC, and Town of Gardiner. The residents in Gardiner were not even objecting to a campground they just wanted some rules and regulations...never happened and the AAC and PIPC rallied a pr campaign against them to better the "climbing" community.
https://sites.google.com/site/eldoinfo2013/
The AAC has in the past 1 year had 2 petitions objecting to the lack of transparency and lack of concern for adjoining property owners. The New river gorge campground has its own access road and the campground is not visible to the adjacent Ames Heights Neighborhood.
The Gunx Campground is in the middle of surrounding properties at least couple hundred yards away and the residents say the noise is loud, the event center has been put in, and there is one person on site to manage over 50 campsites.
Grand Teton Lodge has 1 neighbor far away. This proximity to adjacent property owners is a huge concern to Eldo residents considering the AAC has never developed a lodge this close to neighbors and their brief expierence in close proximity to residents is very concerning.
Thanks for your time to listen to our concerns Ed
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from pitbull's link:
Email to American Alpine Club from Eldorado Springs Petitioners, May 27, 2013
To the American Alpine Club Executive Staff and Board of Directors,
It has come to the attention of Eldorado Springs citizens that AAC believes there is widespread support within the community for your proposed Eldorado Springs Climbers' Lodge. The purpose of this communication is to share evidence to the contrary. While the opinions of those residing within two to three parcels of 3330 range from strongly opposed to adamantly opposed to AAC's proposed Lodge, opposition extends well beyond the immediate neighbors.
Until very recently, very few people have had any awareness of AAC's plans, and those who have been aware have been assuming there would be a County-led public notification and Site Plan or Special Use review process by which community support, or the lack thereof, would be gauged. However, since AAC has not yet applied for a Site Plan or Special Use review, it appears such a public review process will not occur before AAC finalizes its purchase contract.
In the absence of clear evidence of a timely, County-led public process by which the Community can become informed and provide feedback about AAC's proposed Climbers' Lodge, concerned residents of Eldorado Springs formulated and began circulating a petition to gauge the Community’s support of AAC’s plan. In just 1 week, over 70 Eldorado Springs residents, many of whom are homeowners, have signed a petition in opposition to a Climbers' Lodge at the Post Office building. The petition and resultant signatures are attached to this communication and will also be forwarded to Boulder County Land Use Commissioners.
Many of the Community members who are opposed to the Climbers' Lodge hold AAC and its mission in high regard. However, the extreme density of lodge guests on a very small lot, that would increase the population of Eldorado Springs townsite by at least 5% (10% according to 2010 census data), with inadequate parking to meet the Resort Lodge zoning requirement of 1.5 parking spaces per room, in a community already burdened by insufficient parking, is a very heavy price to pay. In addition, a sad consequence of AAC's lack of engagement in a County review process providing for open disclosure and discussion of the facts surrounding your proposal, is that "debate"within the Community about the “facts” has resulted in significant angst, incivility and broken friendships in the Community.
With the receipt of this new information, please let the Eldorado Springs petition signers know how AAC and its Board of Directors plan to proceed. It is evident that while some residents believe this will be a positive addition to the community, we now have strong evidence there are also many residents opposed to this project. Therefore the petition signers hope AAC Executive Staff and Board of Directors will honor your commitment not to move forward with a Climbers' Lodge in the face of this widespread opposition and damage to community relationships.
Please review attached AAC Hostel Petition.pdf
Respectfully,
Eldorado Springs Petitioners
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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I wonder when this thread will hit 1000?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I'm sure that this has been covered in the thread, but the AAC climbers ranch or compound or whatever it is called in the Tetons used to rule.
As for Eldo, it has some of the most classic routes in Colorado. The rock is normally excellent, and you could easily spend a year or two there knocking off routes. Boulder Canyon and Lumpy Ridge are also outstanding.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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The AAC Teton Ranch?
It's Camp 4 with training wheels.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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The AAC is entitled to purchase this building.
Boulder County Land Use and Boulder County building department will have the final say as to whether 22 people can sleep there.
This is the case whether the proposal is from climbers, bird watchers or nuns.
In the Boulder Weekly article Phil Powers agreed there were many "ifs" Also that he felt
" Most of the issues can be overcome"
Land Use and the Building Department are going to require that ALL, not MOST of the issues are overcome.
Obviously parking is a huge issue, I'm not sure how the AAC plans to overcome this issue. The AAC has paid for a study, I could say
" it's barely worth the paper it is written on"
but I am not going to stoop that low.
Paying for your own study is like arranging your own appraisal and expecting a lender to give you a mortgage.
There is potential for 44 cars attempting to park at the building.
Climber A has a late flight out and goes off for the day, climber B wants to make the most of his day and arrives early expecting to park at the hostel.
Phil Powers has stated he wants a location where climbers can walk to the cliff.
Per Phil the AAC needs to make a financial commitment by July 12th.
In the spirit of transparency perhaps the AAC will let us know what that decision is.
Janet Robinson
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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is the actual petition wording available, and not just the cover letter?
it seems that there is a .pdf file of the actual petition referred to in this cover letter...
pitbull?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Obviously parking is a huge issue, I'm not sure how the AAC plans to overcome this issue.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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There is potential for 44 cars attempting to park at the building.
Climber A has a late flight out and goes off for the day, climber B wants to make the most of his day and arrives early expecting to park at the hostel.
Phil Powers has stated he wants a location where climbers can walk to the cliff.
It is just as likely that there could be 0 cars attempting to park at the building as there being 44. A Hostel appeals to traveling climbers who are not well heeled; they may all have hitch-hiked to Eldo.
In reality, climbers are more likely than not to have traveled (and arrived at the Hostel) with their partner -- whether by car or by other conveyance. Relatively few climbers will simply show up at an area like Eldo without someone with which to climb.
While I understand your argument against a Hostel is bolstered by grossly over-estimating the impacts, you must also appreciate that reasonable minds will invariably discount these hyperbolic claims.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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You "locals" are desperate to make it seem that everyone hates the idea and wants it scuttled. But by your own acknowledgement only 70 resident out of 218 actually signed the petition. Not unanimous, not even a consensus.
Y'all must be TeaPublicans 'cause your facts aren't straight and your math is fuzzy.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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We live 2 doors away from a hostel that operated up until about a month ago (http://www.chezcascadia.org);. In the 6 years we've lived within earshot of the hostel, parking issues or other disturbances have been completely absent. The tenants mainly arrived via bus (they had suitcases/backpacks and arrived on foot from the bus stop) or taxi, and those with vehicles were never, ever a problem at all, even though parking along our street is limited, as many homes have on-street parking only. I think there were 12 - 14 beds. The hostel has always been a colorful and welcome addition to our neighborhood. Tenants were quiet and peaceful, never once partying or causing any issues or concern ever to anyone.
I'm baffled what the all the hoopla over the AAC hostel there is. Looks like there's plenty of room at the Post Office and ample parking nearby. Perhaps a satellite parking area when needed? Opposition to the effort sounds either unfounded or something else untold and suspicious is going on. Maybe NSA needs to check things out up there!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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donini is the valet?
What a nightmare!
A blue camalot just to get him not to roll your car?
Boulder really is getting expensive!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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That's hilarious crunch, it's the white gloves that really sells it.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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donini is the valet?
imagine if it was pitbull....
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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This is revealing:
Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $485,454 (it was $251,800 in 2000)
Eldorado Springs: $485,454
Colorado: $237,800
Mean prices in 2009: All housing units: $491,907; Detached houses: $714,706; In 2-unit structures: $646,192; Mobile homes: $24,544
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Eldorado-Springs-Colorado.html#ixzz2YPrXcBMT
Here's the proposed hostel building:
Doesn't look as if parking is a big issue here.
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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I remember the first night I spent in Boulder, desperately looking for a place to throw down our sleeping bags and being woken up by rangers somewhere up Flagstaff. Back then they were cool about it (no ticket), but we still had to move along.
It seems to me that a climbers' hostel or campground would be a good objective, but this location won't comply with County regulations- at least not for the 20 bed plan. The AAC will have to ask for a variance, and the locals will block it. Might as well skip the whole exercise and find a more rural spot; these modern climbers have cars and they can deal with a short drive.
Where is this Condarosa?
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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How about the old Hotel location up Rattlesnake Gulch? For the avid Hiker...it has a good historic precedent, killer views, you can party like a rock star without disturbing any neighbors, and there's no shortage of parking, as long as you enter the park before dusk or have the keypad combo.
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