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Amber.C
climber
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McHale: the danger from a falling soloist is present, yes. But the probability of one of them falling on one of the 3-5 steps where they are above the following sherpas is pretty small. And I'd rather be anchored below and exposed to a falling soloist than a falling roped climber, since their rope would floss me off the slope.
Jim: I don't understand the mythical comment, since I didn't imagine an America that is unrealistic in the slightest, other than I doubt RMI guides much on Liberty Ridge. The scenario laid out is the American corollary to what allegedly happened on the Lhotse face. But whatever.
I can agree with much of your post, but I still fail to see how the three climbers disrespected the Sherpas by climbing over their rope (there was a verbal confrontation which was disrespectful, but that was after the whole thing had already started).
Regardless of local climbing custom, I have to assume that not pushing someone around when they are unroped on steep blue glacial ice is part of a universal human norm to not send another sliding to their death. But yes, god forbid someone step over a fixed rope while traversing a slope. The horror!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Amber, I realize it looked like I was comparing the 2 ice scenarios but I was just commenting on how I would feel with some as#@&%e climbing above me unroped with sharp spikes on his feet. And, that as#@&%e could be me, but I tend to steer clear of other humans, but occassionally I do run into them in ice gullies! That's complete bullshit of course but here we are!
I am curious why those guys came so close to the Sherpas on the Lhotse Face.....maybe they were being social......maybe they wanted to be able to grab a rope just in case....maybe they were showin off. There's so much crap to this sh#t we'll never know but, Viva Sherpas!
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Amber.C
climber
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I don't have any affinity for RMI. I'm just using Rainier as an example because it's an icy mountain that has a lot of guides. I fail to see any difference between the two examples, other than the Sherpas have a cultural heritage surrounding Everest that guides don't have WRT Rainier. I guess I'm a bit hard-headed, but you're going to have to be more specific than "Your affinity for a certain bunch of climbers making a living on Mt. Rainier doesn't necessarily extend itself to what makes money on Mt. Everest." I don't know what that means.
The Sherpas are pissed that some people are taking bread out of their mouths and walking through their worksite caution tape at the same time.
There you go. That's the difference. If you think that independent parties are stealing money by not hiring Sherpas and/or you think that this route is their exclusive worksite, then the Europeans' behavior is an egregious violation. I don't think either of those things are true, but that's a point I'm fine to disagree on.
I frankly don't care if Nepal wants to make the route the exclusive domain of guided parties, including a Sherpa-run guiding co-op. But as it stands, they had a permit to be there, so the area is not the Sherpas' or guides' exclusive worksite in my view. But YMMV.
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Amber.C
climber
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I don't think the words you use mean what you think they mean.
When I say "I don't know what that means" that's not being PC under any standard usage of the term PC. I'm sorry you can't elaborate on what you meant, but in my experience that usually suggests the original point was poorly thought out.
When I mention RMI to paint a hypothetical, I have "an affinity" for RMI. Huh?
Again, tell me the difference between the two scenarios that justifies your different reactions. I assume in the Rainier example you would condemn the guides, but in the Everest example you defend the Sherpas. I think the difference is that you perceive the Sherpas to have some right to Everest that RMI guides don't have to Rainier, which is certainly reasonable. But I'd really rather you say what you think rather than force me to intuit your thoughts.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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the mountains are a place to get away from society and refresh your spirit
from reading about Everest, what goes on there is antithetical to all the reasons i go to the mountains
during my one attempt to climb Rainer in the fashion to which i am accustomed, i.e. doing my best at being self-reliant and staying away from other climbing parties; the RMI guides repeatedly sought me out and harassed me to an extent of never again wanting to go any where near that mountain...seems very similar to this story...
if i wanted that sort of social interaction, i could have been a football player rather than a mountain climber
perhaps if we properly explore and analyze what happened on Mars, we can better appreciate and care for the wonders of this planet...so i wish all that misguided money would refocus attention to Olympus Mons, which is much more challenging the Everest...
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Amber.C
climber
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Jim, I didn't know we were having a dick-measuring contest. Would you like me to post my climbing resume for you or something? I've climbed mountains on 4 continents, including Asia. I've never been to Everest, but I've climbed peaks in the Himalaya.
Once again, that's the difference. The people who live there all the time may not share the sentiments of their clients. It's business.
These weren't clients. They were individuals who had paid for a permit to climb Everest and be in that area, without--as far as I'm aware--any stipulation written into the permit to avoid climbing on specific days. And if you believe the Russians' account that was linked to a couple of days ago, the three Europeans had gotten approval to climb the face immediately prior to the altercation (I don't know how credible that is).
So as to clarify, every one who goes on a climbing holiday in a foreign country, regardless of their ideals concerning ascent methods is still some one having a holiday.
Okay. I will keep that in mind next time I'm at Lake Louise. Better do what the guides up there say--even if they're not my guides--or I might get pummeled!
I'm not sure why it matters if one crosses a border. So I can safely ignore guides on Rainier without consequence but not if I'm in Squamish? Or does this only apply to poor countries?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Well, not to put too fine a point on it but I'm pretty sure the guides at
Lake Louise, Squeamish, and Mt Rainier aren't really the 'owners', unless
you're all for white supremacy.
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Amber.C
climber
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Well, not to put too fine a point on it but I'm pretty sure the guides at
Lake Louise, Squeamish, and Mt Rainier aren't really the 'owners', unless
you're all for white supremacy.
Fair enough--I agree. My question then is "do the sherpas own Everest?" There are reasonable arguments to be made that they do (or should). I'm not sure I agree with them, but--like I said before--I'm comfortable chalking that up to different viewpoints.
I'd rather the Sherpas "own" Everest than the guide companies or the Nepalese government, personally. But I don't think anyone really owns the mountain.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Is it possible to climb Everest when the crowds leave?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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The economics driving guiding on Everest on the Nepal side are not as simple as many might believe. The differing interests of the national government, the locals in Namche, the locals in Lukla, and what ever is going on in the Solo, are going to play out in the short intense season where money can be made.
Likely the Sherpas see laying fixed lines as something similar to building a bridge across the Hudson in terms of local infrastructure. The government wants the head tax, the Lukla folks want lodging money as flights back up due to sketchy weather, and political kickbacks in the lower parts of the region extract their pound of flesh.
Add this to the concept that the tips from guiding a successful ascent might be enough to pay for tuition for the guide's kids to go to school in Kathmamdu, make the stakes different from what we are used to in North America or even Europe. It is a different world. Western ideas of freedom in the hills are completely out of context in the Everest area in regards to sharing the resource of Everest.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Why should one set of climbers wait to climb simply because another set wants to climb at the same time (in this case, to fix ropes)?
Because every climb leader was invited to meet to determine the safest way to climb the mountain, and they ALL agreed to this protocol. So it is not one group vs one other group.....it is one group vs everyone else on the mountain...literally hundreds.
There is no one group or individual who has more right to be on the mountain than others.
I'm sure you would not feel that way if you found out you could not climb in Yos, because the Russians had leased it for the season.
The Nepali have total rights to the mountain.....it is THEIR COUNTRY. Non-nepalese are only there, because they are allowed to be there, under whatever rules and costs are imposed by the OWNER.
Finally, while I am happy that some mountains like Everest and Denali have a degree of self-regulation, this self-regulation is really optional. Climbers have no right to enforce their own code of conduct on other climbers.
If we don't self regulate, we invite regulation by outside entities. It is not optional, it is essential.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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While there is no doubt that the Sherpa do the majority of the hard work on commercial (and many other) expeditions, they do not own the mountain any more than anyone else.
the phenomenon being exhibited above is referred to as "The Ugly American"
When the natives of a country do not own the public lands in that country to a greater degree than non-citizens......."Yosemite, brought to you by Iran"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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It's a f*#king mountain. Anyone is free to climb it by whatever means.
Sherpas pride hurt - bfd.
That's what allows me to come into YOUR home, trash it, eat your food, generally take it over, and when you come home and are upset....bfd
We are NOT free to climb it by whatever means. We are guests only allowed under certain circumstances.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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But I don't think that's true at all. In fact, I think you're treating the situation differently because of who is involved. Again, imagine if this happened in the US: say I'm doing an independent climb of Liberty Ridge and RMI is guiding a bunch of people up. I'm moving faster and going to a higher camp than they are. We're on an area of 60 degree ice and I am staying away from them to the extent that is reasonable. At some point I have to cross over their lines to get to my camp. I do so at the most reasonable point possible--not over top of the leader, trying to be careful not to hurt the followers and belayer below.
For my trouble, I'm pushed or otherwise touched while soloing on 60 degree ice, by someone who is anchored to the slope. And then, when I get to my camp, a group of 100 RMI guides assemble, hitting me, throwing rocks at me and telling me to run off the mountain or they'll throw me off.
Is the best you can do to make up lies?
You left out the part where everyone agreed to not climb the route that day, for safety.
You left out the part where you DEMANDED that the others assemble at your call, to be berated by you, as well as you challenging them to a fight....heard over an open radio heard by hundreds.
You left out the part about being so unskilled as to knock off ice onto climbers below and injuring them.
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Amber.C
climber
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Ken, get a grip. You've read one account and have taken it as the gospel truth. I've read many other accounts which dispute the facts you've listed. Neither of us know exactly what happened. If Moro (or Steck, etc) got verbally confrontational without being provoked in some egregious way, I wouldn't defend it at all. I'm basing most of my comments on what I see as the most credible accounts, triangulating between Chad Kellogg, Steck, the Russians and Melissa Arnot. If those accounts prove to be wrong, I'll revise my views then.
I'm not "making up lies," any more than you are by focusing on one side of the story.
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Degaine
climber
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Amber C. wrote:
I'm not sure why it matters if one crosses a border. So I can safely ignore guides on Rainier without consequence but not if I'm in Squamish? Or does this only apply to poor countries?
Anyone who's traveled to another country knows that there is always a risk of some for of cultural misunderstanding.
This risk increases when the locals and the visitors speak to each other in a language that is not their mother tongue.
Add to this a stressful situation of being at high altitude on a relatively steep face, fatigue, etc., etc., and you have the right mix frustration and for tempers to fly, even if everyone has the best intentions.
Just look at how many people on this very site slag Europeans when they come to climb in Yosemite, and how they should learn to adapt to the local way of doing things. If even been witness to a yelling match or two in Camp 4 between "locals" and a couple of Swiss-Germans, and the "locals" did speak as if they owned the f*#king place.
Or even take the Alps, where altercations occur between people who speak the same language but are from different countries and thus different cultures: French/Swiss-French.
The Sherpa reaction to gang up on the three was certainly an overreaction, but the three Europeans certainly crossed a line that the should not have and that they were obviously not aware of (at least at the moment of the incident).
Amber C., you've traveled to 4 continents, I'm surprised to read that you're not cognizant of any of this.
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Degaine
climber
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Amber C. wrote:
I'm basing most of my comments on what I see as the most credible accounts, triangulating between Chad Kellogg, Steck, the Russians and Melissa Arnot. If those accounts prove to be wrong, I'll revise my views then.
Yeah, but no matter how accurate these accounts are, they're still from a European/Westerner point of view, with all of the cultural misunderstandings and misinterpretations that can potentially go with it (even if those explaining the events have the best of intentions and are trying to be as accurate and impartial as possible).
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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BS, Ken, BS.
And Jan, I'm sure Simone challenged 20 Sherpa's to a fight. The frickin Sherpa's don't own the frickin mountain!!! Westerner's are not the Sherpa's guests!!!! Sherpa's aren't servants but they are paid employees. Gimme a frickin, bleeding heart break.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The Sherpas don't own the mountain, the Nepalese government does. The article in the Himalayan Times indicates to me that the power structure in Kathmandu is coming down on the side of the Sherpas, the guide services and the hundreds of people who want to climb the mountain.
Whether individual western climbers think it's fair or right doesn't matter, what the Nepalese government decides does.
The commercial interests are too great for it to be otherwise, regardless of the circumstances, but Moro in particular has come out looking by Asian standards, to be arrogant and immature which is unfortunate as he has done more for Nepal and Sherpas than most. Rule # 1 in Asia always, is never lose your temper and never swear at people. And for sure, leave their parents and their ancestors out of your insults.
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