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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:50am PT
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Good explanation Roy, thanks.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:57am PT
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The first HEAD POINT route I encountered was done in Joshua Tree by British guys. Way back in the late 80s. It actually had a couple of bolts, and some gear, but not really enough of either. So you wired it out on top rope so that your prior knowledge of the unprotected areas could pull you through.
It was a new paradigm. Fairly creative really. Of course it makes more sense when there are no added bolts because it's actually about conservation. It's like a sustained route where you find yourself soloing here and there in different places. Working the moves on top rope gives you the confidence to bridge those gaps.
We did lots of on-site climbing this way too, usually not as hard.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:06am PT
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So picture the modern El Capitan free ascents. When working from the ground up, they basically gas it between bits of good gear and old tat; maybe the first time up a section they hang here and there when there is gear, after a big run out.
They know they're not "allowed" to be throwing bolts in on established aid climbs. Maybe they even do a little bit of aid to get above the section that they need to top rope. Lots of times they flat-out lower from the top of El Capitan to work whole sections and learn these gaps between the available gear and old fixed aid junk.
It's a real mix of strategies to figure out how to climb what is there and protect only with natural placements and what was left by the old aid ascents in terms of fixed gear.
This is why I say it's like HEAD POINT.
They are only using what the rock and the old fixed placements allow. Lots of big runouts. It ain't sport climbing by any means. But it sure as hell isn't what I described in the OP. I'm not saying it should be.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:23am PT
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Moving on, this is why I'm suggesting modern climbers don't have the same conceptual framework. They have always known, by virtue of their having grown up with sport climbing, that hanging and working and even top roping are completely legitimate options prior to a clean ascent.
So when it comes to "gear routes", they're growing up with some knowledge perhaps about how these big routes on El Capitan are freed. All these tactics at their disposal. It just wouldn't occur to them not to hang and rest when they need to. They're just working a route as usual.
Our whole idea of never grabbing protection was actually fairly artificial if you think about it. It was self-imposed limitation, as a matter of style. In contrast, they have no self-imposed limitations and they just climb as hard as they can, hang when needed, until they can red point something. That much they understand very well: the value of a red point.
Their heroes are freeing these big walls with the same tactics. Why would they play some game of regression concerning how hard climbing is done, whether by bolt or gear where protection is concerned?
In essence this is what traditional free climbing would be asking of them. Hardly anyone is around to suggest they should be doing it any other way by now. Nevertheless, they know what a clean ascent feels like. They just don't use that modality as a way to progress.
Completely different conceptual framework! And not limited by this silly set of rules that we used to perform under. TRAD climbing would seem ARTIFICIAL to them. It's all about how you get the clean ascent. This is the big distinction between TRAD CLIMBING and MODERN FREE CLIMBING.
There is no modern trad climbing. Unless, you take it as having been redefined, essentially in the HEAD POINT fashion. Saves the rock from unwanted bolts, but by different means and through a different set of limiters than we allowed ourselves in the TRAD ERA.
They figure it out anyway they can. We figured it out with some strict maxims in place: no grabbing gear on a free climb. No rehearsing a free climb. Hang dogging, resting on gear, was not part of the TRAD ETHOS. A much slower way to progress up through the grades.
HANG DOGGING of GEAR ROUTES paved the way for SPORT CLIMBING. Eventually the term hang dogging fell away completely because it was essentially a term of scorn. "WORKING a ROUTE" replaced it. So the value judgment peeled away, probably the very first of the leaves to fall off of the TREE of the TRAD ETHOS. Bit by bit, over 30 years the concepts of negativity which guarded the trad ethos have diminished both in the lexicon and in relevance.
This is how it presumably came to be diminished in similar ways with other parameters that guarded the trad ethos. NOW, OLD TRAD can be seen to have been replaced with MODERN TRAD, or HARD TRAD for lack of any consistent terms I'm aware of in the culture.
Essentially the new generation gets the idea of minimal damage to the rock; they definitely get the idea of a clean ascent, but they are using their own familiar tactics in order to achieve these two goals. GOALS which BOTH generations SHARE in COMMNON.
Here's the kicker: I'm going to take a crack at it and say that it was AID CLIMBING ethical preservation that may have played a part. "No adding bolts to existing aid routes" was something the new generation heard loud and clear. Isn't that perhaps ironic! It wasn't some maxim handed down from some crusty old trad free climber. Essentially they redefined the game as it exists outside of bolted climbing, and using their own tactics. "We'll learn to save the rock, but were going to climb at our own standard and use our own tactics to do it". BRAVO!
DINGUS MCGEE: how's that for a grab at characterizing your question: WHAT IS TRAD NOW?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 10, 2013 - 08:19am PT
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So the climbing on gear aspect of the sport would have have moved on to higher grades a lot quicker without the silly constraints of not not working moves on gear, aka yo yo ing? yep, good bye early 80s.
I agree that what is being called trad climbing these days has little to with ground-up ethics of the past.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 08:50am PT
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Tarbuster,
Nothing truer could be said:
There is no modern trad climbing
Roy, thanks for all the examples, thinking and writing you have nurtured into this elucidation of what a lot ST users fail to see about their limited view of this topic!!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:00am PT
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Here is the challenge I like:
in Dean Flemmings article in Ascent about this same topic he concludes:
...the type of equipment that is needed to complete the climb.
To some extent we can figure out how a group is going to climb by seeing what equipment they bring to the crag. But sometimes seeing their gear selection leads to ambiguous or uncertain forecasting of what they are up to. I like this confusion.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:07am PT
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Elucidate away....i'm going climbin. Heading to Cochise which means bolts interpersed with gear except for Abracadaver and a few others. Next week the Black Canyon which doesn't even have many fixed belay anchors.
Each area has been developed differently.....choose where you want to climb and deal accordingly.
My definition of the "modern trad climber" is that he/she is a generalist who can adapt to the myriad of different climbing styles and protection opportunities now available.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:13am PT
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Patrick Compton,
agreed, the modern young "trad" climbers hangdog and work routes even at Vedauwoo. Bob Scarpelli is the local ethics horn blower of this bygone idea of "no hanging" for the area. When Bob is having a bad day?, he will often yell at some of these moderns, "Lower to the ground, Jesus Christ." The accosted climbers display a look like what the hell got into this guy??
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:17am PT
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donini,
are you a modern trad climber, or have you spoken too much?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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Dingus,
Ha! I can picture that scene well.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:42am PT
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Over indulgence of fixing the mind on such mundane topics as this will make you fail at the crux .....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:46am PT
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Isn't that why we have campfires, Werner?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Warbler,
So then, style is a silly constraint?
Analogous to using high-heeled shoes for walking.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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It MIGHT make you fail, Werner.
It MIGHT help one of us mortals get our sh#t together somehow.
Slack, brother...
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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Camp fire you're supposed to stare at it and watch flames and stay warm.
Clear your mind of all baggage.
Then go to sleep.
Modern climber goes to camp fire to get intoxicated with nonsense and fill mind to the brim with stupid.
Then next day Modern climber wakes up all stupid and stumbles incoherently and bewildered.
An internet forum is not camp fire. I don't see any logs on fire. :-)
Just see ...... :-)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Kevin said:
Trad, like high heels, is what makes the walk sexy.
Made it sexy for you & I to be sure.
The constraints were artistic constraints and quite productive as well, towards producing a certain internal tonality which is not so easy to describe.
But if Werner would only go and grab another log for us, I'm confident I could nail it! (I've already done so in another thread; would it be hangdogging the discussion to post an excerpt ?! Heh).
When I say SILLY constraints, I mean only to address the perception of those constraints by climbers reared in the modern context.
Context has shifted dramatically.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Donini said:
My definition of the "modern trad climber" is that he/she is a generalist who can adapt to the myriad of different climbing styles and protection opportunities now available.
Yes!
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