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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Toker quipped Self-defense wouldn't be "sporting" if you didn't give the robber/rapist a chance.
I, too, live in a Charles Bronson fantasy most of the time.
By gun-nut logic the perpetrator of this massacre was helping make America safer until he shot his roomie and hopped in the car to head to the school. Guns did not to decide to kill all those kids...
...but man did they make it a hell of a lot easier.
America needs to stop giving in to the paranoid anti-gov't idiots who live in trailers in the middle of the desert. People have a right to own firearms. They don't have a right to stockpile arsenals without someone taking notice. The "well gee we are helpless to track these people unless they have a record" excuse-makers are idiots. Let's stop acting helpless already. 3,000 people died on 9/11 and now I can't send a text message without the NSA reading it. 30,000 people die every year to firearms but I'm supposed to just shrug it off because the evil government would have to learn how many guns I owned to start doing something about it. If more guns really = less crime then how come so many motherf*#kers in this country keep getting killed?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Ron: My response to that cartoon: Stalin, Mao, Hitler
Ron, get real, your guns are less than zero impediment to US government assuming broad powers if the wrong folks got in control.
It ain't rocket science, clear society of two thirds of the weapons currently in circulation, dramatically curb the right to posses weapons, and institute rigorous oversight of weapons which remain lawful.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Just heard a piece on NPR about the profiling of mass shooters, and the perception of an increase in mass shootings over the years. The interviewee said that in spite of perception, the number of such shootings in the US hasn't changed much over the years. (Not sure exactly what his definition of 'mass shooting' is, but his numbers were in the range of ~20/year.)
I suppose that's tragically interesting and oddly comforting (poor word, I know) to know such shootings are not dramatically increasing, but I'd sure like to see public attitude become more invested in seeing those numbers go down as years go on, and not simply write them off as some kind of ghastly status quo.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Here's a list of shootings from U.S. and around the world. Regrettable wherever it happens, but not confined to the U.S.
•July 20, 2012: At least 14 people are killed when a gunman enters an Aurora, Colo., movie theater, releases a canister of gas and then opens fire during opening night of the Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises.”
•July 22, 2011: At least 80 people are killed at a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya. A man arrested also is suspected in a blast earlier the same day in downtown Oslo that killed seven.
•April 30, 2009: Farda Gadyrov, 29, enters the prestigious Azerbaijan State Oil Academy in the capital, Baku, armed with an automatic pistol and clips. He kills 12 people before killing himself as police close in.
•March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people — including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff’s deputy — across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.
•Sept. 23, 2008: Matti Saari, 22, walks into a vocational college in Kauhajoki, Finland, and opens fire, killing 10 people and burning their bodies with firebombs before shooting himself fatally in the head.
•Nov. 7, 2007: After revealing plans for his attack in YouTube postings, 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen fires kills eight people at his high school in Tuusula, Finland.
•April 16, 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.
•April 26, 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, who had been expelled from school in Erfurt, Germany, kills 13 teachers, two former classmates and policeman, before committing suicide.
•April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school’s library.
•April 28, 1996: Martin Bryant, 29, bursts into cafeteria in seaside resort of Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia, shooting 20 people to death. Driving away, he kills 15 others. He was captured and imprisoned.
•March 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and then kills himself.
•Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby’s Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.
•June 18, 1990: James Edward Pough shoots people at random in a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office in Jacksonville, Fla., killing 10 and wounding four, before killing himself.
•Dec. 6, 1989: Marc Lepine, 25, bursts into Montreal’s Ecole Polytechnique college, shooting at women he encounters, killing nine and then himself.
•Aug. 19, 1987: Michael Ryan, 27, kills 16 people in small market town of Hungerford, England, and then shoots himself dead after being cornered by police.
•July 12, 1976: Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian in the library of California State University, Fullerton, fatally shot seven fellow employees and wounded two others.
•Aug. 20, 1986: Pat Sherrill, 44, a postal worker who was about to be fired, shoots 14 people at a post office in Edmond, Okla. He then kills himself.
•July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty, an out-of-work security guard, kills 21 people in a McDonald’s restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty.
•Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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RonA, wrong as usual. Mayors and the police actually agree, not disagree, though rightwing, activist supreme court judges agreed they were willing to do a party line, NRA interpretation of the second amendment, but that's about it. But of course, you can't carry in their courtroom.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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The issue is that there WILL always be crazy as#@&%e nutjobs and high capacity weapons and handguns are TOO f*#king easy to get in this country.
Yes drug dealers will get guns no matter what, but having sensible regulations on assault weapons and high capacity clips will help keep them away from the nut jobs. And yes there is a f*#kin difference between a semi-automatic deer rifle and an assault weapon with a 30 f*#kin round clip. If you don't agree explain why to the parents of the 20 children who died today.
The conversation will change at a national level due to this incident and the killing of children. Better stock up on your assault weapons living in fear boys because they are going to become harder to get.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;
Is that about right?
Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Apogee as I posted earlier (maybe on the other thread) the number of murders in the US has dropped by 10K in the last 20 years. This is a remarkable statistic especially considering the population growth during the same time.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Roe v. Wade
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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yep, R v W
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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Ron said thats what you think H,, the govt disagrees completely however.
Yeah your guns really deterred the patriot act from assuming wide power. According to you, Obama even "outlawed dissent" (which is why you are in jail instead of sitting on your ass criticizing him in public). I'm not willing to risk my kids' lives to entertain your paranoia any longer.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?
um, no
FACT: A Republican President Reagan signed the most "restrictive" gun control laws
FACT: President Obama, a Democrat, has signed into law the most gun right "friendly" legislation in the past 30 years
You don't know your ass from second base
This Democrat carries all the time, it is naive and childish to stereotype people
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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Toker quipped Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;
I see. So you can only complain about firearm murders if you were killed by a firearm.
Here is a list of US government agencies that were stopped from carrying out their "power grabs" because of citizen owned firearms:
Here is a list of the incidents that Obama thought about doing something but then found it unworkable because he feared clashes with armed citizens:
Here is a total count of the tears shed by gun nuts today before thinking "oh man now this means were going to have to have a firearm argument:"
As far as I can tell the only "freedoms" the NRA has expanded in the last 30 years are the freedoms of firearm manufacturers to make larger profits and the freedom of mass murderers to quietly amass arsenals unnoticed.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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Of course the sheeple and media will focus on the tools at hand...
What we need to figure out is what may be a common root cause of this random homicidal rage. Something has changed, for the worse, in the past 20 years. That's not a long span on time. Meds, GMO foods, chemtrails(jk)...
My vote is on meds. I've personally been witness to psychotropic med induced insanity in otherwise perfectly normal people with normal histories. The recent push on television of these complex and horrifying drugs is sickening. If you think the NRA lobby is anything compared to big pharma companies.. you'd be wrong.
This isn't about guns. It's about where this human will to kill as many strangers as possible comes from often in young people without violent histories. For some reason the last mall shooter really bothered me. 22 and seemed so damn normal from his digital history....
So, we need to disect every killer's medical history. Were there any common meds perscribed? I can't even count how many people I know now on some med "for the winter blues"...
Every one of those medication comes with the "May cause suicide" warnings.
It's not a stretch at all if someone's brain is that fuc#ed by chemicals that suicide is pretty damn close to homicide.
But no... the media will focus on how many bullets he had.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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I am not going to pontificate, I just want to cry for those that lost loved ones. Little children, dead. They did no harm to anybody. My heart goes out to those families.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
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Well, Dave, what can I say?
You da man!
(more precisely, you da revolver man. I bet Gerry M is preparing to hand you his crown as we speak.)
Does that mean that arthritic grandma better man up and learn to crank a .38 instead of that cute .25 in her purse?
HDDJ, you become a lawyer? Pretty good at twisting words around.
I guess now that we have the Patriot Act to defend us we might as well just turn in our guns.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Which state has the least gun deaths?
Which state has the strongest gun control laws?
hint: it's the same state
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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So 28 people are dead, mostly small children, and apparently including the gunman. Plus the wounded. Let's spare a thought - preferably much more than a thought - for the families, friends, and community of the dead and injured. Enough of the usual monotonous yapping, from the pro-gun crowd especially. Have you no hearts?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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I think you need to qualify that statement. Saul of Tarsus murdered lots of innocents by his own admission.
Mr. Eleazarian,
I question whether Saul of Tarsus openly and straightforwardly shed innocent blood. Translations imply he "consented" to Stephen's death by watching over clothes of witnesses while Stephen was stoned. Hardly a valiant deed... but he seems to have been without authority at the time Stephen's martyrdom.
There is very little in Paul's epistles about his past. And his epistles contradict Acts. Some scholars believe his epistles are more reliable than the account in Acts.
The account in Acts says he bound and delivered individuals to prison. Certainly, he admits to willing persecution but I think the passage in Acts 22:4 requires a measure of boldness to imply he was favorably inclined to the shedding of their blood.
Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to pardon him?
I'm not proposing that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient...I'm suggesting Christ, Who's redeeming blood was shed...and Who accepts or rejects repentances... cannot look upon the willful shedding of innocent blood with the least measure of allowance.
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