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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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A gun is just an external extension of ones consciousness.
That's a great idea. Let's switch to discussing consciousness.
Oh before I forget. Somewhere back there is a thread discussing which makers of knock-off AK47's make the best AK47's, the most accurate, and the least likely to fail/jam.
Chris you might want to go and delete that whole thread.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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In the Aurora shooting and almost every other mass shooting, there are a couple of things they all had in common. The bad guy was the ONLY one with a gun
In a theatre in suburban Colorado containing 400 or more people, that seems rather unlikely. What are the odds that not a single other person in a crowd of 400 had a gun?
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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^^^^^^
WHY is Canada so violent?
Canada is not that violent. And to put things into perspective, the US has ~10x the population of Canada, so in a sense they are 10x more likely to have a violent situation, making them look 10x worse than Canada.
There are lots of people here on ST who are from all over the US, and who will also tell you that they have never in their lives felt threatened or have been around a hostile scenario. I have travelled extensively in the US since childhood and have yet to see a "situation," and that includes visiting big-name cities with known crime problems. But they do happen.
The problem is not the guns. If we decide to ban guns, then some crazy guy who decides to kill a bunch of students will lock the kids in a gymnasium, chain the door shut, douse the place in gasoline and light it.
Now what? Do we ban chain, jerrycans, gasoline and lighters? Where does it end?
How about booze? Something like 40-50 people die each day in North America from drinking-driving related accidents (~15,000 deaths each year in the US alone!). I don’t hear anybody lobbying to "regulate" or "register" alcohol.
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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In a theatre in suburban Colorado containing 400 or more people, that seems rather unlikely. What are the odds that not a single other person in a crowd of 400 had a gun?
Anders, I am completely dumfounded as to why NOBODY else in that theatre had a CCW on them. When seconds count the police are only minutes away.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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Whoa, did someone say guns?
Those are those things that kill people all the time right?
So, this may be kind of f*#ked up, but just follow me here.
AIDS kill people too. During 2009, there were an estimated 42,959 new diagnoses of HIV infection in the 40 states and five dependent areas.
Yet, people rejoice Obama lifted the ban on HIV+ travelers into the U.S.
HIV/AIDS kill people.
Why do guns get the spotlight?
AIDS and guns are similar. It's all the who controls it. You can keep your pants on, you can keep your trigger finger calm. You can go out an infect, very easily, or you can go into a theater, a school, a bar, and shoot it up.
Oh before I forget. Somewhere back there is a thread discussing which makers of knock-off AK47's make the best AK47's, the most accurate, and the least likely to fail/jam.
Why not just get a real one, for the same price? Amateurs.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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considering that probably close to 80% of "our" killings were gang related, those figure hardly represent a tally of the citizens here..I killed NO ONE,, last year.
cherry picker, i said"PROBABLY"...;-) got "link" for yours?
You're right Ron. I didn't catch the 'probably' or the 'ours.' So you're guessing about Reno Area?I did note that it's probably lefty paranoia. Should probably note the shooter was neither a gang member or a Nevada resident
Not debating just throwing some info on the fire. no source for the graphic but here are some supporting facts.
2011 populations:
Finland 5,401,267 - 1 in 317,721 murdered by gun
Austrailia 22,620,600 - 1 in 646,302 murdered by gun
England 56,075,900 - 1 in 1,437,843 murdered by gun
Spain 47,190,497 - 1 in 786,508 murdered by gun
... Germany 81,726,000- 1 in 421,268 murdered by gun
Canada 34,482,779 - 1 in 172,413 murdered by gun
USA 311,591,917 - 1 in 32,854 murdered by gun
and here's some info from that commie rag Small arms Magazine...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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In the Aurora shooting and almost every other mass shooting, there are a couple of things they all had in common. The bad guy was the ONLY one with a gun
In a theatre in suburban Colorado containing 400 or more people, that seems rather unlikely. What are the odds that not a single other person in a crowd of 400 had a gun?
Guns weren't allowed in the movie theater. What are the odds that someone in the crowd was illegally carrying a gun? Who knows--but I'd guess not that high--a "lawful" gun owner would, well, follow the law, and an illegal gun carrier probably wouldn't feel a need to carry a gun into a movie theater.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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Okay then MH, why didn't they use it?
Assuming that someone(s) in the theatre had a gun, she/he may not have used it for any of a wide variety of reasons:
1. Not sure who/what to shoot at.
2. Inadequate training.
3. Too busy escaping, helping others, etc.
4. Too far for an accurate shot and/or likelihood of hitting others.
5. Affected by tear gas, others stampeding, etc.
6. Worred that he/she might then become a target, either of gunman or of police.
7. Not enough time.
8. Intimidated by weaponry of shooter.
As for the theatre, it may have had a sign prohibiting concealed weapons. In a crowded multiplex theatre late at night, would it be enforced in any real way, or just on the honour system?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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Or, if you are concealing, and you're in a theater, and someone obviously prepared to the teeth comes in shooting up the place...
You'll notice the body armor immediately after the 5.56x45 flying into your stands.
So before that whole argument "If someone with a CCW was there, this wouldn't of happened" bullsh#t, think about it.
Body armor, might be hyped up on pcp, big guns, lots of ammo, tear gas.
Concealer = lets pretend he had a .357.... Still gotta somehow manage to aim without hitting people in the crowd, while bullets are flying at you, going through chairs, women, men, children, etc.
If I had a goddamn gun, i'd of played dead.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 23, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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Alona Day, huh?
10...9...8...7...
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 23, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Simple enough:
You can't prepare for these. They're just too rare. Too unfathomable.
You can't stop them.
They're terrible, even when it doesn't affect you one bit.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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What are the odds that someone in the crowd was illegally carrying a gun?
100%
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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Everything is the government's fault.
Where have you been?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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What are the odds that someone in the crowd was illegally carrying a gun?
100%. Agreed Jaybro. Along with those who were legally carrying.
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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You'll notice the body armor immediately after the 5.56x45 flying into your stands…
Body armor, might be hyped up on pcp, big guns, lots of ammo, tear gas…
Concealer = lets pretend he had a .357.... Still gotta somehow manage to aim without hitting people in the crowd, while bullets are flying at you, going through chairs, women, men, children, etc.
So he had body armour on. Yes, that would prevent core shots, but that doesn’t prevent head shots. If someone has their CCW and is actually carrying, there is a 100% chance they are trained to the point of making the police look like gangster robbers holding their guns sideways. I’m not saying that under stress they would be able to shoot the guy in the face, but the odds go up drastically. Furthermore, I doubt that the CCW carrier will be worried about hitting too many people in the crowd, as they would have ran AWAY from the bad guy (i.e. shooter).
And I wouldn’t expect the CCW guy to necessarily incapacitate the shooter with a head-shot. I would expect the return fire would distract the shooter from aiming at the crowd, and put his focus on either taking cover, shooting back at the CCW guy, and/or fleeing the scene (think self preservation - after all, he DID surrender (as opposed to suicide)).
So, I stand behind my CCW call. It can, has and will continue to save many lives. Just look at the robbery attempt in Florida:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YffbN29XOs
If the 71 year-old had of pulled out something bigger than his .380 then those fools wouldn’t be around to tell their story. But regardless his CCW did the trick. Beat that.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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two thugs with backs turned away.... clear shot.
One guy, spraying bullets at you. People running around frantic. I dunno about you, but every theater I've been to, exits in the front.
Head shots under stress are a lot harder then target practice after warming up.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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If someone has their CCW and is actually carrying, there is a 100% chance they are trained to the point of making the police look like gangster robbers holding their guns sideway
you are obviously not aware of the shooting skills required to get a CCW?
I have a Concealed Carry License from the State of New Mexico
Here is the shooting "test"
A large target is placed SEVEN feet away, fire five rounds and hit it ANYWHERE
A large target is then placed FIFTEEN feet away, fire five round and hit it ANYWHERE
Oh, and take all day aiming and reloading if you want, no time tables on anything
25 people took my class, all "passed", including an 82 year old woman in a wheel chair
whose arthritis was so bad the instructor actually reloaded her 22 pistol for her
A CCL is a joke, I actually MISSED 2 of the five shots from 15 feet and they still passed me
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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I’m definitely not saying head-shots are easy or even doable in that stressful scenario, but the actually return-fire is a great means of a distraction. NO crazy shooter will just stand there and ignore a civilian shooting back at them, body armour or not.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 23, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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Norton,
A lot of the people exercising their First Amendment rights can't pass a spelling test.
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Jul 23, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Norton, it is probably best that you do everybody a favour and train yourself to be a better shooter. I am aware of the requirements, I guess I’m used to conversing with people that are highly trained in this area, not commoners who shouldn’t be carrying a weapon. Look how many goofballs have their driver’s licenses.
You should not be carrying your CCW unless you are trained to properly use it.
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