Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:19am PT
|
Sorry, I break my promise Da-Dweeb, but just for a moment!
I've seen this picture here in supertopo and I couldn't resist, sorrry!
I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!
So, could they be considered HOMO climbers (altough in Spain homo couples, both men and women, can marry and even adopt a child, so here homo is not excatly an injury...)?
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm
|
|
Da_Dweeb
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:26am PT
|
so here homo is not excatly an injury...
Nor should it be, and well spoken.
If only the rest of what you had to say was so sensible...
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:44am PT
|
I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm
and you know that from a picture of someone cleaning a route?
I hope that you continue posting for the entertainment value but I also hope that you understand that your posts do nothing good for yourself, your side of the story or Pelut. Ad hominem attacks instead of discussing the issue just make you look like a fool.
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:16am PT
|
Well, seeing the comments of all those superheroes in this thread, I would not expect a cam every 40 cm in a roof like that. At least they shouldn't accuse Pelut of putting a gear every 18 inches because it's clear they do the same and Pelut's gear is not exactly a bomb-proof cam. At this point, perhaps someone should consider something...
On the other side, Jensen bolted the route, what obviously is drilling. And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to admit it, that's another thing...
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:29am PT
|
And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to see it, that's another thing...
What about trying to follow the ethics in the area that you are visiting?
Why the insults in almost all posts? Do you believe that insults helps your argument?
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:39am PT
|
Homo is not an injury?
In addition, begin reading the thread since the beginning and you'll find who was insulting first...
Anyway, you are right, I'll try to contain myself even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:48am PT
|
So you must continue with insults if some other people insult you? I am not sure who started the insults but it was the route that started the discussion. A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that.
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
|
even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).
The problem is that the route in question do not show the FA team in any good light.
I don't doubt that things like prejudice, locals vs non locals, americans vs non-americans sometimes matter in discussions about routes but it is obvious to me that that is not the main issue about this route.
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:06am PT
|
"A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that."
Let's accept that's true, ok (I don't see why you believe so fiercely Jensen. Just a bunch o photos...)? The FA ascent did it really wrong, that would be perfectly correct here and in Europe.
But, why create a web page to announce that even before have done the SA? Why not even answer the FA team callings for a meeting (although just for saying how wrong where they)? Why retrobolting the route and placing even belay chains on the route (is this respect?)? Why saying they are really bad climbers when they have repeated hard routes like Intifada or Weird Science and have made new routes in Baffin and hard routes in Spain? Why the first reaction when you know they've repeted your route (I mean Weird Science) must be I'll be there watching the havoc they've done instead of I want to contact with them to know their opinion? Why the first reaction when you know they've opened another route in Kingfisher must be another shitty homo route? Why not showing a little bit more of respect and a little bit less of perjudice?
Since my point of view perhaps just because David and Ester weren't born in your part of the pool...
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:48am PT
|
The Chief I appreciate your not so hostile attitude and your respect to me when not writing "slang" that unfortunately I cannot understand.
I'm not here to defend Pelut and Ester, this action corresponds to them and that's is what I answered to Paul Gagner in an older post. They are who should answer some questions. I just was shocked of seeing how people in supertopo supported Jensen's attitude and his retrobolting of the route under a weak pretext.
As far as I know, I think that your vision of aid climbing is very accurate. But I also have to say that American aid climbing community is not so critic with itself than when climbers come from abroad. Perhaps you know this thread, but it seems very interesting (specially the most recent posts): http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/moab_area/fisher_towers/105717394
I guess we'll agree there's not too much pungency in these words and that perhaps even a MAster like Beyer did not followed the clean ethics 100%.
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT
|
Rivet Hanger, are you actually trying to scold Jensen about bolting ethics after the FA drilled more holes on the wall than swiss cheese? Srsly?
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
|
It is ovious that you and your fellow conquistadores truly fail to understand this philosophy of Clean Climbing ethics.
"Clean" is not in their vocabulary. Have you seen the base of their cliffs? I've never seen so much garbage in my life. The climbing was awesome, but the litter piles stole from the experience.
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:00am PT
|
Come on Pitbulls, read a little bit...
//Beyer told me that on this route, and on World's End, he developed the innovative technique of drilling two (or was it three?) 1/4" holes immediately above each other and then pounding in an alumihead (the old rectangular Forrest versions work best for this) into the resulting slot. Trenching for the Fishers. He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook. This gets a little weird years later when someone tries a second ascent, and the slots have degraded and eroded out ( the rock can erode really fast; I have actually seen Beyer copperheads on top of little protrusions of rock); and there is no mention of any of this in Beyer's own descriptions/topos. What's a second ascentionist to do?In the case of World's End, the second ascentionist retreated, baffled, and, after a long phone call to Beyer, returned to the fray armed with a drill, and rather more liberal attitude to using it.With Intifada, the second ascentionists, once they realized that there were lots of driled holes already on the route, figured there was no harm in deepening existing holes. I was camping in the Fishers when Tim Wagner did the third ascent of Intifada. This was a fine effort, done solo. As I recall, he told me he had no clue about who was responsible for the numerous holes all over the route. He just used the holes he could, and drilled others out deeper as needed (ie if they had degraded/flared out and were unusable).// Steve "Crusher" Bartlett
Swiss cheese? Retrobolting after long phone call to Beyer? Tim Wagner using the holes he could and drilling new ones? Where are they from? Do we make a huge fire and burn'em all together with Pelut and Ester under pretext of sinners? Do we include Jensen in this purification?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:35am PT
|
Let me try to make this clear, Rivet:
You do not chose a "line" that is not a line, that does not follow a series of features, and therefore requires a ridiculous amount of holes. Mistake number 1.
You do not fill holes with non-standard, oddball, proprietary gear that will be unsuable for parties that follow...like broken off wooden pegs and goofy fat heads. The goal is a sustainable, repeatable route with minimal modification to the rock. Mistake number 2.
You do not pound on pins to the point of destroying the placement and making it unusable for future parties. Mistake number 3.
You do not place these overdriven pins every 2' because you're too scared or lacking in skills to get out of your third steps on vertical to sub vertical terrain. Mistake number 4.
You do not then spray to the world that your wholly manufactured, unsustainable hole ladder, with minimal technical difficulty and artifically induced "danger" like ridiculous "hook belays" that actually have bomber drilled placements incorporated, is the "hardest aid route in the world". Mistake number 5.
I could go on, but that's not getting my work done. Just accept that your hero is a fraud, a charlatan, a publicity whore hack, who is full of more sh#t than a Porta Potty at a Chili Cookoff.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:36am PT
|
He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook
You didn't find that fishy?
We should always be open and honest about what we do - attempting to cover up is what really irks blue collar 'merican climbers.
|
|
Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:44am PT
|
Elcapinyoazz, please, reading comprehension...
My English level is not good and from Steve Bartlett words I can understand a lot of things, even the alumiheads and the hole filling, the erosion of the Tower's rock and oh surprise, how will this vertical mud react when cleaning the pitch (something that is obvious watching Jensen photos, indeed)...
We can argue in another thread if this is right or not (I admit is not the best way), but you should admit that perhaps all you were too though with Pelut and Ester and very soft with Beyer & co. and this is not a pretty fair position. Just a matter of American proud?
And please, we agreed that no more insults, didn't we? Come on!
And after all, and perhaps the most important, who asures all you that Jensen did not drilled those pretty holes where the angles are placed in his web page video of the anchors belay? He was alone up there, wasn't he? He says he'll release a video, will see if the holes where there yet or he drilled'em. At bottom, he retrobolted the route without remorse, so any remorse for drilling a nail hole or a pair?
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
|
I don't believe that people have been soft on Beyer. I have at least read a lot of negative things about him and his routes here on supertopo.
It was a long time since I read what Jensen wrote about Intifada but I believe that he was very negative about both the route and Beyer.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!