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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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As corporate officers go, it looks like Metcalf might still be a human. According to SEC filings he owns about a million in stock and gets paid less than 200k...
I'd expect somebody like that to respond. That's not Golden-Sacks money after all...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What he earns is beside the point.
The issue is corporate accountability.
Dane's move is brilliant. I hope others follow suit.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Good point, Ron. Agree 100%.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Got a reply from Peter Metcalf last night thanking for my e-mail and letting me know that he has read the thread. He has promised a response via the BD website in the near future.
That is what I have for now.
JBC
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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climbing with a broken crampon is like climbing with a broken ankle.
you could die.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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I too got a reply from my email to Black Diamond, saying there will be an official response on BD's website later this week. The reply also stated "the failure rates have decreased since (we) switched to Stainless".
It'll be interesting to read what they have to say.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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coz,
I would really like to read a well written and full account that includes a timeline of what went down and caused the rift you have with Black Diamond / Peter M.. All I read from your posts is anger. No first hand accounts or testing or statistics. I really need something to change my way of thinking and I have not seen it. Maybe it's the engineer in me (no, I don't work for or in any way affiliated with Black Diamond (we have been down this road before)). Please provide information. I have great respect for you as a climber and your accomplishments but it's hard to maintain with your continued attacks.
Thank you in advance.
Erik
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 07:02am PT
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Erik,
this might not be the place for that, as with my own particular beef.
But if Metcalf would care to go on record about his double dealings with me here then I might just have something for y'all to hear.
Bottom line; it has been a long time since Yvon was at the helm.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Something to think about.
BD's supporters (and BD employees) have made personal attacks on the credibility of the BD detractors in public forums.
The BD detractors in turn (and it seems may be even more often here on the Taco) more often than not focus on individiuals at BD to flame in the process.
While I don't think I was treated fairly by BD staff I can imagine the reasons they chose to act the way they did. I may not agree and think their acts dishonorable and less than honest but understand the rational.
Just my take on it but the continued personal attacks are not going to make a difference. We either have a legitimate issue with the quality of BD gear or we don't. The sand box pissing (and we all have plenty of reasons for that) while entertaining, isn't the issue.
Bad harness designs or broken crampons may or may not be a real issue. But calling out BD employees by name in public seems more than a little punk to me.
Making this discussion personal simply detracts from the real issues. I have no problem if you think it is a personal issue but making it one in public is a guaranteed way to spin your wheels.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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Here's a link to another thread on the subject over at Cascade Climbers that's a bit less personal.
p://rafalandronowski.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/broke-my-crampons/
I'm really curious what BD has to say about all this
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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Dane,
you are right and I'll dial it back some.
But I'm not talking about an employee. I am talking about the CEO and his lack of accountability. The fish rots from the head down, and the corporate culture merely reflects this.
I used to be a substantial customer, but I haven't bought a piece of BD gear in close to 10 years and have still managed to bag some cool new routes.
Maybe the term "by fair means" should be expanded to only using gear made by companies accountable to their customers.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Ron, thanks. But the comment was not just directed at you. More a observation than accusing anyone. I've done my share as well. And I agree something wrong there in the corporate culture and the CEO IS responsible for that.
But no shortage of solid A type personalities in this discussion. (personally present or not)
I noted a long time ago that the fastest way for me to lose in court or on the street was to let the other side get to me personally.
Everyone get's their back bowed in this discusion and no one will win. BD takes a hit and we lose a major source of generally good gear.
We can all imagine what a Internet conversation like this does to the revenue at BD. But you can bet someone noticed all this long before the emails went to Metcalf and BD employees.
If I were looking from the outside in I'd say, "a few broken crampons, what's the beef?" And some yokels really pissed at Metcalf from the old days for various personal reasons. The dude might be a dick or just another A personality with an opinion of his own. (hypothetically of course :)
"Move along nothing of interest here."
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Here is a straight up question for you Oakm. Do you work for BD now or have you in the past as a employee, as contract labor or have you ever applied for a job with BD? What I want to know specifically is have you ever had any sort of professional relationship with BD. The answer can be a simple and clear cut, yes or no.
[crickets]
I find it interesting that oakm came out of the gates with a bang (16 posts on Friday alone), then apparently the cat got his tongue a couple days ago when asked the above question. I simply assumed he was connected to Black Diamond but didn't think much of it. But since he challenged RDB's "credentials", the least he can do is answer with a simple yes or no.
I'm curious about BDE's policy on employees commenting in online forums (on or off the record) if any.
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Apr 10, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Hold on a sec Werner, you do realize that the photos that you posted were from a set of used prototypes that Rafael bought at the MEC swap meet, right? Come on...I make gear and prototypes are what I make to get broken.
Looking over at Gravsports this morning, it looks like there are a couple of strange 'poons wandering around again, but it sounded to me like the issue was stress flexing from using the wrong bar with soft boots.
Since the thread came up, and I read the last page of posts, I'll also point out that I know that Bill Belcourt and a few other BD employees post on online forums like gravsports or cascadeclimbers from time to time. I've got no clue what their corporate policy is or anything, but I do see them posting from time to time.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Coz,
Your response is worse than the above mentioned 'crickets'........ Nothing.
Are there two cozs on this forum? One that starts a 7 day countdown to the bomb and the other that makes a lot of money for them. Please make up your mind and please present an account of the problems that you keep alluding to regarding harnesses and / or integrity of the management of BD. If you don't clearly state the problems I cannot see how any response by BD will be adequate.
Erik
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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the photos that you posted were from a set of used prototypes that Rafael bought at the MEC swap meet
Not entirely correct there Crackers. They were "sales samples" (Belcourt's term and how the crampons and boxs are labeled) not prototypes. Lots of them in the field. More a convient excuse than a reason for failing imo.
The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
I for one was not thrilled to be climbing on "sales samples" with no indication from BD that they were failing on a regular basis. Even the commercial product bought at retail quickly became suspect if you were paying attention.
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