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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 20, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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Hmmm. This is a pretty typical american attitude.
When I say that it happened quickly, I mean within a billion years after things cooled off. Most of us have seen the stromatolites from Australia as an early example.
Sorry. I think in geologic time. My wife is always making fun of me about that. A million years is a blink of the eye.
Replies like "Retarded" or "Buy some land on Mars" are really not a discussion. That is just childish name calling. No need for that. I have plenty of respect for others and I assume others should do that as well.
Werner: There was this route that I could never pull the crux on. It was really goofy and involved smearing on this dime edge and letting fly to get a jug. After Fire's came out I started pulling it off about 1/2 to 3/4 of the time. One day I was over there with some buddies, did it with a rope and then came down and soloed it. I dunno if it has been soloed since. The move is that insecure. It was only 5.11, but it was a totally dicey move.
Kinda crazy. Even after that I had about a 75% success rate, if that. I had done the route that many times. So I used to roll the dice when I was young and thought I would live forever. The landing was totally heinous.
So yeah. Climbers roll the dice sometimes.
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Feb 20, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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My gramm was 100% Swedish, Johnson, Jag älskar dig!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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scientists think they are the verge of creating life from matter.
Thinking means guessing, speculating, theory, hypothesis, believing, and faith.
Matter is not life.
It's not gonna happen ever ....
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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Werner.
I posted earlier about how we toss ideas off of each other. It happened to me the other day. Probably the smartest geologist in the group plopped in on my office and started asking me these wild questions. I admitted that i didn't know the answer.
He just had an idea pop into his head and nabbed the closest geologist down the hall to bounce this idea off of. A lot of this happens.
There was something about this one area that was super strange. It ended up being a good hour or two walking around looking at maps and pulling data and arm waving. That stuff goes on all of the time.
It gets formal when you publish. Lots of times there will be a talk where a new idea is tossed out. It is good to find holes in an idea before investing a ton of your time on it.
That is what is going on with guesses about where science will be in the future. Those are just guesses. They don't mean much.
Me? I do my thing over in what I know. I let the biochemists go play with what they know. I see no reason to say that it is impossible to create life, but as a practical matter, companies like Monsanto have been tinkering with DNA for twenty years. They can take a gene from one organism and put it in corn DNA to make it more insect resistant or whatever.
And you know what is happening? Insects and crop diseases genetically adapt and become resistant very quickly.
So playing Frankenstein is already going on, albeit with living tissue.
It is only a matter of time until this knowledge is used on humans, and those decisions will not be made by scientists. It will be made by businessmen.
It probably won't happen in the U.S., but it will happen in some other country.
There is a great sci-fi movie called "Gattica." It is a very well made film, and ponders that very issue.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Evolution is established bonafide fact, Base 104.
Life comes from matter is false, and this is mistake is due to poor fund of knowledge of the what "life" really is.
Life comes from life.
Use science for this and leave out all religion ......
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Sure, every single living organism that we have seen has arisen from parent(s).
I am just saying that someday it may be possible to engineer something that qualifies as life. Just defining what life is is difficult. It would have to be something very simple. Right now it is easy to engineer life and make it into something totally unnatural. Kind of spooky.
Look at Mad Cow Disease. It doesn't come from a living bacteria or virus. It comes from these weird proteins called "Prions." Catch it, and you die a horrible death.
Viruses, at least when I studied biology, fall into a really gray area. They sit around and do nothing until they come in contact with a living cell and hijack its DNA. So calling a virus life is stretching the definition. You sure think it is alive when you catch the flu, though.
But so far you are entirely correct about creating life. Even heavily engineered DNA needs to be inserted into a living cell.
Prions are pretty wild. The wiki page is really good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 20, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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HEY!! That avatar was Andre The Giant, the greatest Championship Wrestler of all time!
I am one of his posse. Even though he is dead.
As for Werner, he isn't stupid. Sure he is dogmatic, but I really don't think it is totally driven by faith. Not like Rick Santorum.
This is what really scares me. Rick Santorum becoming president and putting a bunch of Pat Robertson clones on the Supreme Court.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 20, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
way to contribute, Gobee!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Which according to him, is a delusion.
Like I've always maintained and established as bonafide fact that YOU Dr F always make up sh!t.
I've never ever said anything that. "The outside world is a delusion."
I've always said and maintained that the material world is real although temporary.
This is why you are a terrible scientist, and that is a bonafide fact.
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Feb 20, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Thx Norton!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 20, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Largo
You are so wrong about the Beginning of life
You just spun it to make it unbelievable, so you can justify your unbelievable magic
Your propaganda about the beginning of life sounds more like from a Christian than a sound understanding of reality.
What, exactly, are you talking about, Craig? What "unbelievable" claim have I made about the beginning of life? What propaganda are you referring to, specifically?
It's you guys who keep telling us that the new incarnation of Dr. Frankenstein is just around the bend that he will cook up life from scratch in no time.
To this I have simply said a few things. First, that Victor Frankenstein apparently believed that life was basically a collection of parts, or ingredients, and that if properly blended, life would naturally emerge.
Meaning that life was itself no more than, and emerged entirely from, it's material bits.
I'm not saying this is not so. I'm simply laying the implication out there. That a materialist believes that life springs entirely from matter and only matter.
But Victor Frankenstein believed that the parts were not enough. He needed the lightning bolt to activate the matter. The new Victor Frankensteins - the ones we keep hearing about who are are the verge of creating life - apparently believe there is no need for the lightning. Just get the recipe right and as as Craig says, Nature will do all of it on it's own.
So far so good, correct? I make no contention with these claims.
Next, it is the materialists that insist that the only real and valid truths are material truths that can be measured and tested. Fair enough. Lets go with that as our criteria for what is real and what is horsesh#t.
We can measure nutrinos now. We can observe things on astonishingly small and large scales. So if matter becomes life, and if matter becomes conscious, as the matrialists claim and insist, and if we can measure and observe just about anything, kindly point out one instance, in time and space, where inorganic matter has been directly observed becoming "life" ("It's Alive!), and where matter has been observed becoming conscious. Since life and consciousness are so obvious in Nature, and since both are said to spring directly from matter, this transition from inorganic matter to "life" and consciousness should be rife and observable in nature - lest the claim, by the materialiits own criteria, is - what, exactly?
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 20, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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That a materialist believes that life springs entirely from matter and only matter.
You called? ;)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 20, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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I read a bunch of other stuff about the origin of life. What's remarkable it that as hard a time as very skilled scientists are having trying to cook up membranes and so forth, think how amazing it is that this apparently happened ("spontaneously" - which has no real explanation) on its own, by accident or fluke or fortuitous happenstance. A variation on the Victor Frankenstein lightning bolt is a popular notion that volcanoes played a part in the origin of life. The instant inorganic matter became life has to be one of the most singular flashes in creation.
This is what I was talking about
Its Pure BS
Scientists never said any of these things
You silly rabbit, Craig. I'm a pro writer. You think I don't know how to research stuff, and that I fumble my info.
Scientists never say any of these things, you say? Dig it, dude:
The following is from Scientific America:
The Origin of Life: A new analysis suggests lightning and volcanoes helped make life possible. David Biello reports.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=the-origin-of-life-11-03-27
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 20, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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But you have to admit it was funny for John to call Craig a silly rabbit. I wonder what Craig's snappy comeback will be?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Schrödinger writes in his book:
"The large and important and very much discussed question is:
How can the events in space and time which take place within the spatial boundaries of a living organism be accounted for by physics and chemistry?
The preliminary answer which this little book will endeavour to expound and establish can be summarized as follows:
The obvious inability of present-day physics and chemistry to account for such events is no reason at all for doubting that they can be accounted for by those sciences."
p3 What is Life?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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The preliminary answer which this little book will endeavour to expound and establish can be summarized as follows:
The obvious inability of present-day physics and chemistry to account for such events is no reason at all for doubting that they can be accounted for by those sciences."
"present day physics"
thank you, Ed
maybe in the future
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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ah, thanks Riley
will read your link now
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