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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 21, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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do you think the needles climbers are so inept they couldn't find a way to get the offending bolt? Even a modestly clever climber like myself can figure out how to do it in about 10 seconds of pondering...
I'm not saying they couldn't find a way. The non-climbing way is something of a production. Obviously, a combination of things influenced their decision, if indeed something as definite as a decision was ever arrived at. I have no idea what deliberations may or may not have taken place.
I'm just saying, as a non-local frequenter of the area, that the nature of this climb would have made it easy not to act.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 21, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
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Cool to know. It really has nothing to do with Athlete's Feat for me, I was just curious. Some guy was telling me there was no bolt on Country Club Crack way back when, which just smacked of B.S. to me and it seems your story confirms my hunch. There are now two bolts there, however, so I guess the bolting controversy continues.... I'd hate to see more bolt wars on that particular section, that piece of rock looks bee stung now..
I first "climbed" CCC (i.e., pulled past the beginning crux) as a newb in the early 90s, and I'm pretty sure there have been 2 bolts on that section since at least then to the present, so I wouldn't lie in bed at night worrying about this one. I have lived in Boulder now for almost 20 years, and I'm confident in saying there is no current controversy regarding the bolts in either AF or CCC. Take one out, it'll get replaced. Put an extra one in, it'll get removed. Real simple.
The comparison between AF and CCC is that they are (in this respect) virtually identical climbs: long (by Boulder Canyon standards) crack sections that take perfect gear, with short, harder, unportectable face climbing that starts off the ground to get to the crack systems. Without bolts, they would be climbed only by the few percent of climbers who are both experts and daredevils, or perhaps people would just climb them with 10 giant bouldering pads and 10 spotters--wouldn't that be an improvement in style?
To say the existence of CCC has "nothing to do" with whether bolts should be on AF seems odd to me, unless you think that the character of a climb has nothing to do with a whether it should have a bolt.
With all due respect to Pat Ament, and that is a lot, RR did not "create" anything when he climbed AF. The good Lord (or nature) or whatever did that. He was just the first guy to do a hard (at least to my humble ass), unprotected start to a somewhat easier, long, well protected crack climb. That is a section of rock just crying for a bolt, and got one (in fact 2), and that's the way it's going to stay.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 21, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
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Now comes, apparently, a group of climbers for whom the locked real estate is not an invitation to practice, training, and the perfecting of skills. It is instead an offensive denial of an entitlement. These climbers seem to believe that they are owed they right to climb sections that nature has declared to be run-out, and the solution to this injustice is not to bide their time while perfecting their craft, but rather to put in some bolts so that they can comfortably do the moves right now.
While I'm generally on board with this line of thinking, I believe it ignores a critical fact: sheer numbers of climbers.
The "locking up real estate" argument probably didn't have much merit when there were 5 climbers at your local area and the "trainer" routes were generally available/unoccupied. These days the 5 is 500 and I believe practicality is more the driving force than an entitlement mindset where they aren't willing to earn it through skill development.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 21, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
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Rgold,
We have heard a lot of views, positions and anger from each side on the Superpin bolt. Is there a Win-Win scenario where most of our values will be preserved or available?
Certainly if either side wants 100% of their ideals met I see no solution.
As I see it there are simply two states –either the bolt is there or it is gone. A thousand years later when it is gone H Barb’s protégés and group will be entirely satisfied and maybe even glooming and rejoicing in his status making action of so long ago. But when the bolt is there the H Barb group will be crying foul while those substantiating the 34 year passage will be making use of their lesser chicken_shit skills, but probably still having a good time.
And from the Grandstand: Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" may the Abduction begin.
The sacrifice is waiting for the next time the bolt/hanger will be there or gone, depending on what you need.
It was in August that Henry reaped this fruit and so it shall be that the bolt/hanger will be gone in August. And so too, will be gone for use, that feminine part of what remains when a bolt is removed.
In September, obviously the month of abundance, Superpin shall again bear fruit like those of Mike Tood’s efforts. Whatever was used to block the hole will be removed. Obviously it will not have been a wedding ring.
And in this fashion every other month the respective King Maker will send his knight to this duty of extraction or insertion for the side he rules. The turff is yours 50% of the time with no bolt/hanger.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Sep 21, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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while those substantiating the 34 year passage will be making use of their lesser chicken_shit skills, but probably still having a good time.
classic!
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 21, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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Awaiting an accurate translation from the other Dingus,you are going to put the bolt back in.
What will you have then?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 21, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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Tomcat,
what they had for 34 years. You(Tom) try choosing the idioms and euphemisms that bind your group and their perception of reality you want to create.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 21, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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This pic was taken around 1993. Someone ought put a mark on where the bolt was. I highly suspect that I was below said bolt and would have cratered from where I am at in the pic had I fallen. That is fact and not meant as an argument for said bolt. I am all for preserving the routes as they were done on the FA. Just seems like 34 years is a long time to hold a "bolt on my route" grudge.
I was surprised when I climbed on El Cap as every belay on hte Salathe and Nose seemed to be nice big fat bolts. Are they justifiable? Is it OK there but not other places? Hypocritical if you ask me.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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DM, win-win is possible only if both sides are prepared to lose something.
Personally, at this point, I would have let that bolt be, as I've said. I'm not really in either of the camps you describe. In fact, I think the situation with Superpin is now rather sad. There's nothing to rejoice about no matter what the outcome. That situation has become permanently lose-lose as far as I can see.
As for owning some part of the debate, I don't think the turf is mine anywhere near 50% of the time, nor should it be. I'm a fading relic of another time, and though I may be a pretty good whiner, to use DMT's phrasing, my voice is surely destined to follow the head start my climbing skills already have down the path to oblivion.
My hope in the argument is to appeal to a younger generation, and if anything I say loosens unexamined calcified positions, even for a moment, then there is little more I could ask for. And if not, then I will console myself with having tried.
I might add, since you mentioned it, that I am not at all angry. Not in the least. Passionate, yes, and perhaps that sounds like anger on the internet, but no, what will be will be, and I can assure you I will not lose a moment's of sleep over it either way.
Meanwhile, the whole Superpin carnival is a distraction. The eight bolts on the Bellringer, which most people neither know nor care about, and who knows how many analogous degradations, are the real problem. They illustrate the total failure of local autonomy to deal with what has to be an outrage for anyone who has made it from the gym to the world outside. Forget about Superpin, please, and try to get those locals you say you are representing here to focus on the real tragedies of stewardship in the region.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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http://mountainproject.com/v/the-wedge/105792629
two of the routes were retrobolted with the blessing of the city of scottsdale in the late 90's early 2000's. Both FAist (brothers) have been dead for decades. I think they should be chopped, but who knows.
The third route (with FA guys still above ground) was rebolted as well.
(all three were done for 20+ years with original hardware)
If we can all say the removal is the best thing to do then so be it.
For superpin, how many ascents were done with the original gear?
Once 'provenance' is shown (two or more ascents) then leave it be. Barber just should have acted decades ago but still is in the right IF the route shows a history of even one repeat ascent with original gear.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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In looking over these different responses there clearly is a line of division between the old and new and the difference is so great that the new can't even imagine or don't want to consider the old orientation of "earning" a route by way of competence, risk management, and self mastery (containing fear). We can be sure the new orientation came out of gym climbing, where the point is to do moves. Why would one risk anything in a gym - or outdoors, for that matter? What has risk got to do with climbing, the physical movement? Why would anyone in their right mind want to risk anything when the obvious thing is to slug in a bolt. So easy, right?
The orientation in the past was that boldness and courage were virtues - and this tradition lives on in spades with all the high bouldering and soloing going on. But the old on-sight ethos, where risk management was a real factor, has largely been forgotten because no one or at least very few grew up with this mindset.
People grew up with grid bolted routes. Why should they be denied a fine experience and a fine route because some arrogant "daredevil" ran the rope?
They're berating the very things that used to energize the game for a majority of climbers.
Things change.
But I'd still hate to see the old testpieces bolted up. They don't take up that much real estate.
JL
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Rick d, Bragg and I repeated the route before the bolt was added. Piana says in his guide that the bolt was placed on the fourth ascent of the route, which would mean that after Henry, there were two more before the fiasco, one of which would be ours. My now vague memory of the summit register is that there were a lot more ascents than that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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Largo: And in the vast majority of situations, climbers ARE better than in years past. Vastly.
Really? On exactly what basis? Has pure physical difficulty and endurance in both sport and trad advanced? Absolutely.
Can I walk into a roped or bouldering gym and totally at random hand a rack to the folks in there and expect them to make it up a local multipitch trad 5.7? In your dreams. I'm guessing less than 20% of the folks who put on a harness this year could lead a multipitch trad 5.7 if you handed them a rack.
Has someone pushed the limit? Sure, but those folks represent a vastly smaller percentage of today's total demographic then the folks pushing the limit in the '70s of that demographic. So yeah, standards have continually advanced, but my guess is the percentage of the total demographic doing the advancing has shrunk year over year.
In essence, natural selection is still hard at work with gyms and the heavy commercialization of the sport providing a much, much larger gene pool to draw from than in days past.
P.S. Baseball players still look fat...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
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rgold,
thanks for the sincere reply. The locals with the minds of the type you and I knew of circa 1977 are today absent from this place. Before the posting of this thread I had not heard about modifications on the Bell Ringer or the Storgahan Route. Even with just chicken_shit skills these (rap?) bolters could have easily set up a top rope on them and tested their following skills before bolting.
Perhaps the best new working rule for this area would be: "If you are going to rap bolt (even one bolt) find a new line". Yes, Superpin is something that took place long before rap bolting and is different than these atrocities. Sometimes re-framing the stance gets one many miles. Touting this request is likely to preserve much of history. These guys don't know how to hand drill.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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The only honorable way to chop Super pin would have been to lead it without clipping the bolt first. I am certain that this put a damper on some of the folks who would have liked to see it chopped but lacked the skill to make it happen.
There is certainly a place for X rated climbs but I personaly prefer that they do not have fixed hardware on them. Additionaly it really sucks when 5.12 climbers put up 5.8X climbs. Impresses me not even a tiny little bit as they should be putting up 5.12 x climbs if they actually want to prove how big their balls are. All that 5.8 X does is give ownership of what should be a good climb to an elitist prick. Just like stealing candy from little kids. If that same climber puts up a 5.12 that has a 5.8X section to it then that is great and most likly an awsom route for 5.12 climbers. A few years ago I soloed a 5.6. I went back the next day and retro bolted solo by hand in the rain and turned it into a great beginners lead, It even has a 5.2 R section on it to give the beginning leader some spice. I feel a hell of a lot better about that climb knowing that some newb is going to get to learn to lead on it than i would haveing a free solo in the guide book.
Like it or not the FA owns that piece of rock for a very long time.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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tradsman,
I can sympathize with your position in regard to a runout 5.8 after a protected 5.10 done by a 5.12 climber.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 21, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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DM, agreed (with your post before Tradman's, not the one after). It seems that rap bolting is here to stay. Nothing the old farts say is gonna change that, and I think you are right to view the best strategy at this point as one of appropriate containment. (Ha! Containment is surely the wrong term; it is the trad lines that will be surrounded and outnumbered.)
In view of the nature of Needles rock, one needs to say something about not rap bolting a route right next to an existing trad line. Is that going to be too hard to explain? A definition of "right next to" might be problematic.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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DM,if you went to Superpin tomorrow,and found it had four bolts now,because someone thought it better that way,would you leave them?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
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Largo. I certanly do not want to see all climbs safe. I do like to see climbs get some action. If I put up a climb that is so stupidly dangerous that no one repets it for a decade not because of difficulty but because of crap gear then I want to fix that climb. If however a few brave soles get out there and give that climb some action then it has proven itself to be a worthy climb. It is better that more folks can enjoy it but it should also have something to it that keeps the riff raff away. That to me is a masterpiece. A climb that many leaders at that grade can do but also one that shuts down a good ammount of leaders at the grade. Not for everyone but still accesable to many.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
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rgold,
satisfactory separation distance, that is a difficult criteria to get one to follow who has seen the proximity of sport lines. Any ideas?
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