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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 25, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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The greatest of all time.
Il Pirata
And he was a climber too!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 25, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Chief...pull your mouth off Contador pole for a minute and take a deep breath. I never said Lance was the greatest cyclist ever...there is strong proof that he is the was the best when it came to the Tour de France.
I also never said that the Tour was hardest stage race in the world...I said the most competitive...which I believe is true.
DeDee...nice that choose two that were busted for doping...even the greatest have faults.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 25, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Lance will forever be under a cloud of suspicion, as he should be. Contador the same......who is clean?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 25, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
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Hey Bob, he is still the greatest.
Don't try and tell us that Lance never doped.
Merckx has condemned doping but he tested positive three times.[5] The first time was in the 1969 Giro d'Italia[6] where he tested positive for the stimulant Reactivan at Savona, after leading the race through 16 stages. He was expelled from the Giro. The controversy began to swirl when his test results were not handled in the correct manner, they were released to the press before all parties (Merckx and team officials) involved were notified.[49] Merckx was very upset, and to this day, protests his innocence.[6] He argued there were no counter-experts nor counter-analysis. He said the stage during which he was allegedly using drugs was easy so there was no need. He said:
“ At the time, the controls weren't reliable and I wasn't able to defend myself. They had started on the analysis and the counter-analysis during the night, without anyone from my team's being present. They had, they said, tried to get my manager, Vincenzo Giacotto, by phone, but he hadn't left his room all evening. The following morning, I was in my racing clothes, ready to leave, when they came to tell me I was positive and therefore excluded from the Giro.[6] ”
"I've never seen sporting opinion so inflamed," wrote Marcel De Leener from Belgium. "Even members of parliament have got themselves involved in the affair; the Opposition has questioned the minister of public health in the Lower Chamber, the Cabinet is in an uproar, the Foreign Minister has questioned his opposite number in Italy. In the streets, in factories, in offices, in public transport, they talk of little else."[50] The Italian federation stuck by its findings but the Belgians refused to agree and it took four hours of debate in Brussels for the professional section of the Union Cycliste Internationale to quash his sentence. The president of the Fédération Internationale du Cyclisme Professional was Félix Lévitan, organiser of the Tour de France. It was diplomacy and, "let us be frank, hypocrisy too", reported Cycling.[51] The hearing praised the Italians and accepted their evidence; however, Merckx was cleared to ride the Tour. De Leener said:
If on the one hand they have recognised the skill and competence of the doctors in charge of the controls in the Giro, they also took into account the fact that Eddy Merckx had never been found guilty of this before. In other words, they judged the affair sentimentally, with their hearts, instead of considering all the dry facts. If this were not Merckx, would all these artifices have been resorted to? No, without any shadow of doubt, no."[51]
Prince Albert of Belgium sent a plane to bring him to Belgium.
Merckx was also found positive after winning the Giro di Lombardia in 1973.[6] He had taken Mucantil (Iodinated glycerol).[52] He said in 2007 that he wanted the Union Cycliste Internationale to give him back his victory. He said:
“ "I was disqualified for taking a syrup which had been taken off the list of forbidden products.[n 8] ”
“ It was Dr Cavalli, of Molteni, who prescribed it to me a bit lightly [un peu légèrement]. And he admitted his error publicly. Looking back, I can't see why they could disqualify me for such a ridiculous and inoffensive product as norephedrine."[6] ”
The World Anti-Doping Agency removed norephedrine, phenylpropanolamine, from the list of banned drugs in 2004.[6]
Then he was caught after taking Stimul in the 1975 Flèche Wallonne. Merckx said:
“ "That, I can't deny. I was positive along with around 15 others. I was wrong to trust a doctor."[6] ”
In 1977 the Belgian doctor, Professor Michel Debackere, perfected a test for pémoline, an amphetamine-like drug, and caught three of the biggest names in Belgium: Merckx, Freddy Maertens and Michel Pollentier.[53]
Because of his doping record, the organisers of the 2007 World Championships in Stuttgart asked Merckx to stay away. The decision was criticized in the press and by the UCI.[54] When he confirms his stance against doping, Merckx points out that cycling is unfairly treated compared to other sports.
In the 1990s, he became a friend of Lance Armstrong and supported him when he was accused of drug use, stating he rather "believed what Lance told him than what appeared in newspapers".
Regarding Pantani:
In 1999 Pantani was leading the Giro d'Italia with only one mountain stage left when a blood test at Madonna di Campiglio showed that he had a 52-percent hematocrit reading, above the 50-percent upper limit set by UCI. He was expelled from the race and forced to take a two-week break from racing, with no further action taken.[12] At the time of his disqualification, Pantani had won four stages and held a comfortable lead of five minutes and thirty-eight second over compatriot Paolo Savoldelli and also lead the points and mountains classifications.
It was later revealed that Pantani had recorded a hematocrit level of 60.1 per cent when he was hospitalised after his crash in 1995 Milano-Torino and Pantani was accused of falsifying sports results through EPO.[13] Although the results didn't surface until 1999, in early 1997 UCI had decided to implement blood testing imposing a 50-percent upper limit for hematocrit. A rider with a value above 50-percent was given a compulsory two-week suspension. The test was designated as a "health test" although it was on suspicion that the athlete was using the banned blood-boosting drug, EPO.[14] Turin prosecutor indicted Pantani on a so-called “fraud in sport” but the case was eventually dismissed because the law itself had only been passed in 1999.[15] Pantani stayed away from the rest of the year's races.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 25, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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Jim..I agree, DeDee, I agree.
Over 500 doping tests for Lance...negative.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 25, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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What a good thread this used to be.
+1
Always turns into the "tastes great, less filling" argument much like virtually all subjects on SuperTaco these days. People are really turning nasty.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 25, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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On a positive note.....LONG LIVE PHIL LIGGETT.
and Paul Sherwin, love you guys.
and our very own BOB ROLL, hero of Andy Hampstens win of the Giro de Italia.
Bob rules.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 25, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
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Yes Dr., they are multinational treasures.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 25, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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Phil, Paul and Bobke really love what they are doing...and it shows. Maybe they will call the Vuelta?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jul 25, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Just realized my Boss's daughter is marrying one of the team members! Go America, and Australia!
Why do they display flags on who is where in the race (TV) if it doesn't correspond to the reporting on the winning team (Australia is reported, but he is on a US team. Just curious, His father-in-law could not explain it. Answers?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:16am PT
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Imagine lining up next to this guy
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:38am PT
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Why do they display flags on who is where in the race (TV) if it doesn't correspond to the reporting on the winning team (Australia is reported, but he is on a US team. Just curious, His father-in-law could not explain it. Answers?
Assuming you mean Cadel Evans. He is Austrailian. He rides for a US based team (BMC). The team is named after their main sponsor, a Swiss bike company (BMC).
Hope it helps.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Someone explain to me why a Swiss bike manufacturer sponsoring a bike team is called a US team?
And by the way... if anyone's looking for a new horse, give the BMCs a look. I bought a BMC road bike this past spring, and I'm loving it so far. Super stiff, but great ride, totals out at 15 lbs.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:53am PT
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The Chief...Contadope is no better than Lance on the artificial stimulants front. Want to know why he rode away from everyone so easily in the Giro? Controls are not as tight as in the Tour. So yeah, his knee was hurting, and he was fatigued, but he was also missing the usual juice.
All the GTs he won, he was putting out the same ridiculous watt/kilogram numbers that Lance and Pantani were.
Here's a good article on this year's Tour:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24tour.html?_r=1&ref=tourdefrancebicyclerace
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:54am PT
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the team is owned by an American and is headquartered in Santa Rosa CA.
Shouldn't you ride a steel frame?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jul 26, 2011 - 01:08am PT
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I really like the look of these...
except the water bottles.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Jul 26, 2011 - 01:12am PT
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What a great Tour it was! Loved to see Voeckler fighting to hold the yellow, big GC battle between Cadel and the Schlecks, Sammy Sanchez contesting every inch of the mountains, Mark Cavendish taking no prisoners.
Seems like just a couple whiffs of drugs so far when Farrar wondered how Cavendish recovered so well from being dropped in the mountains, and Evans wondered how Andy Schleck managed to stay away in the headwind on the Galibier.
Sure, maybe we believe life sucks and then you die, but I figure you might as well enjoy the Tour in the meantime!
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Jul 26, 2011 - 02:25am PT
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Back in the late 90s after my mtb racing days were pretty much over, I was the team manager for the US world mtb team for several years. I would travel to the world championships and manage the onsite logistics. Two years before the first blood tests happened the doctors that volunteered to travel with the team began testing mtb pros to get a baseline. Just to see if the seemingly arbitrary limit of 50 (for men) was legit. It was found that those living at altitude consistently tested above the limit of 50. Mine was 49.5 a year out of competing. I lived at @7,000' at the time. We did not think the test was set at a valid limit but it was the limit so we had to deal with it.
The US doctors came up with a protocol to lower that result a few points the morning of a test if needed. We had long talks about whether we were protecting dopers or protecting our riders from an over zealous UCI that did not have good information. It was thought that at the time no US riders made enough to support an EPO habit and had two years of data to detect any spikes in levels. I had all the numbers for the riders just in case.
The morning of the first surprise test the UCI knocked on my door and demanded a group of athletes present themselves for testing. I told them that many of the pros could not arrive in time as they were rooming with their pro teams across the valley. The UCI officials conferred and asked me to get "who ever I could"! So I did. All the lowest numbers on the list that were staying in the team hotel. All passed and got to race.
Most other national teams did the same as I found out. Most of the top riders conveniently could not be found on test morning. Pretty sketchy to say the least.
At the time if one had the money and tested say 45 they could be" helped", no way to get caught. the UCI was usually a sloppy step behind the medical field. And mountain biking was pretty low key at the time. Most doping was not that performance enhancing. Most of the top xc riders at the time used it for a springboard to the road side. That Cadel guy is doing pretty good! Even had a young foreign team mate of mine tell me that it would be stupid for him to dope while young. Wait until it would do some good as a mature rider.. .
So fast forward to the LA years. His organization was the first to solely focus on the tour, biggest $$ race biggest stage in the world. Spent millions on bike testing, revolutionized training, actually trained on the critical parts of the stages, noted where rivals would not be a strong on what percent grade. Brought riders on the team specifically to work in specific situations. Used the TV feed to fake having a bad day. Got the best parking areas, Best escape routes from crowded finish lines (more recovery time) and on and on. That kind of organization and focus for a team on a single race would really make everyone else feel that they were not on the right juice.
Kind of like comparing someone that has a route wired and someone climbing ground up onsite.
So to think that the nutrition recovery side was not as throughly explored as every other aspect of their preparation would be naive. And where does nutrition end and doping start. Only line that can be drawn is what is on the anti doping drug list. I would guess that substantial sums of cash were spent to keep this team right up against the limit to what was legal on any given year. And good for them. All world class athletes take the rules to the limit.
But if they crossed the line to masking illegal use and bribery to quiet positive results - well then, hang em high..
It will hurt, it will be crappy but the sport is bigger than one person.
And the cycling world wants to watch more races like this last one.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 26, 2011 - 03:23am PT
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Great and informative post Max. Thanks.
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