Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
|
Yes Tony, I am familiar with the Plame case.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
|
Fortunately, I've never had a leaky wiki.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
|
If you don't understand the importance of Niger in the world of nuclear weapons, then you really should not post.
that's pretty typical of the level of debate we get, skipt, implying that if you haven't been subscribing to foreign affairs for the past 40 years, you're not qualified to step up to the plate, although you are qualified to pay for these rumpuses with your taxes and to offer your offspring as sacrifice to the cause.
your reply on cross-examination is also typical. self portrait?
anyone who lived through that time and kept up with the news will remember that the niger nonsense was cooked up, probably by the same fella who writes wikileaks, from an old graduate student's thesis, long obsolete. do we have to dig all that up? if we do, we will.
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
|
Since the FBI just ran a successful operation to stop a mass bombing less than 1 mile from where I work just in the past week, all this discussion is not simply an academic exercise to me. The only authority that can provide for our mutual defense is the US Government. To do so requires discussion and debate that should remain behind closed doors. Will that be abused from time to time? Yes. Can our purposes be misunderstood taken out of context? Certainly - like any snippet of any discussion. Would this discussion provide endless amusement and be potentially embaressing? Of course.
Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean it is morally right to do so. No one elected or appointed Wikileaks to any position. They can joyfully create whatever uproar amuses them, dam the consequences. Talk about playing God and Emperor!
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
|
What's Niger's only export?
If you said "uranium", go to the head of the class.
If you said "Why not elaborate, Dipskipt? Maybe you can do it using only Sixteen words", then go sit on the Dunce Stool.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
|
To fear the truth, is not the way to live Realistically, there are things you don't need or want to know Rick. Which is not to say you wouldn't support them if you learned them, or in fact be the unknowing beneficiary of them.
ps, Crowley, holy sh#t bubba - are you stuck in 3rd grade? LOL!
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
|
When true information is leaked, it is possible to mix it with disinformation, if in fact professional Intel is involved in Wiki-leaks.
If N. Korea finds out that China, the U.S. and others all favor reunification, they could do something drastic, killing thousands of people. Would'nt want to have that on my conscience.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
|
David Brooks NY Times Column on this, note the comments in boldface:
Op-Ed Columnist
The Fragile CommunityBy DAVID BROOKS
Published: November 29, 2010
Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, had moved 37 times by the time he reached his 14th birthday. His mother didn’t enroll him in the local schools because, as Raffi Khatchadourian wrote in a New Yorker profile, she feared “that formal education would inculcate an unhealthy respect for authority.”
She needn’t have worried. As a young computer hacker, he formed a group called International Subversives. As an adult, he wrote “Conspiracy as Governance,” a pseudo-intellectual online diatribe. He talks of vast “patronage networks” that constrain the human spirit.
Far from respecting authority, Assange seems to be an old-fashioned anarchist who believes that all ruling institutions are corrupt and public pronouncements are lies.
For someone with his mind-set, the decision to expose secrets is easy. If the hidden world is suspect, then everything should be revealed. As The New Yorker reported, WikiLeaks has published technical details about an Army device designed to prevent roadside bombs from detonating. It posted soldiers’ Social Security numbers. This week, the group celebrated the release of internal State Department documents with a triumphalist statement claiming that the documents expose the corruption, hypocrisy and venality of U.S. diplomats.
For him, it’s easy. But for everyone else, it’s hard. My colleagues on the news side of this newspaper do not share Assange’s mentality. As the various statements from the editors have made abundantly clear, they face a much thornier set of issues.
As journalists, they have a professional obligation to share information that might help people make informed decisions. That means asking questions like: How does the U.S. government lobby allies? What is the real nature of our relationship with Pakistani intelligence? At the same time, as humans and citizens, my colleagues know they have a moral obligation not to endanger lives or national security.
The Times has thus erected a series of filters between the 250,000 raw documents that WikiLeaks obtained and complete public exposure. The paper has released only a tiny percentage of the cables. Information that might endanger informants has been redacted. Specific cables have been put into context with broader reporting.
Yet it might be useful to consider one more filter. Consider it the World Order filter. The fact that we live our lives amid order and not chaos is the great achievement of civilization. This order should not be taken for granted.
This order is tenuously maintained by brave soldiers but also by talkative leaders and diplomats. Every second of every day, leaders and diplomats are engaged in a never-ending conversation. The leaked cables reveal this conversation. They show diplomats seeking information, cajoling each other and engaging in faux-friendships and petty hypocrisies as they seek to avoid global disasters.
Despite the imaginings of people like Assange, the conversation revealed in the cables is not devious and nefarious. The private conversation is similar to the public conversation, except maybe more admirable. Israeli and Arab diplomats can be seen reacting sympathetically and realistically toward one another. The Americans in the cables are generally savvy and honest. Iran’s neighbors are properly alarmed and reaching out.
Some people argue that this diplomatic conversation is based on mechanical calculations about national self-interest, and it won’t be affected by public exposure. But this conversation, like all conversations, is built on relationships. The quality of the conversation is determined by the level of trust. Its direction is influenced by persuasion and by feelings about friends and enemies.
The quality of the conversation is damaged by exposure, just as our relationships with our neighbors would be damaged if every private assessment were brought to the light of day. We’ve seen what happens when conversations deteriorate (look at the U.S. Congress), and it’s ugly.
The WikiLeaks dump will probably damage the global conversation. Nations will be less likely to share with the United States. Agencies will be tempted to return to the pre-9/11 silos. World leaders will get their back up when they read what is said about them. Cooperation against Iran may be harder to maintain because Arab leaders feel exposed and boxed in. This fragile international conversation is under threat. It’s under threat from WikiLeaks. It’s under threat from a Gresham’s Law effect, in which the level of public exposure is determined by the biggest leaker and the biggest traitor.
It should be possible to erect a filter that protects not only lives and operations but also international relationships. It should be possible to do articles on specific revelations — Is the U.S. using diplomats to spy on the U.N.? What missile technology did North Korea give to Iran? — without unveiling in a wholesale manner the nuts and bolts of the diplomatic enterprise. We depend on those human conversations for the limited order we enjoy every day.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
|
As The New Yorker reported, WikiLeaks has published technical details about an Army device designed to prevent roadside bombs from detonating.
It posted soldiers’ Social Security numbers.
So what good cause would be served by these two actions?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
|
Anyone else find Fatty's "I'm a tough guy cause I kicked a few punks when I wasn't kicking donuts as a part time wannabe cop" schtick tedious?
|
|
damo62
Social climber
Brisbane
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
|
Well said Dingus, as always (nearly).
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
|
YES, dirtbag.
Extremely tedious.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
|
Hi Ronny,
How are things in Mississippi?
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
|
Or is it Idaho?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
|
DMT,
Torture works, I've used it and gotten the information I wanted.
The evil one
edit: only once
damn. you didnt stop it you are using it quite successfully here on a continuous basis!
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
|
And here I get to the meat of this... he went on to say in the next breath that because of the wide spread anxiety and panic in the weeks and months after 911, those techniques were justified.
Let me state that again - he said that BECAUSE OF THE PANIC (felt by the public)... torture was justified.
Think about that. Its why we should never let the harsh trenchcoated men with bright terrible eyes operate carte blanche behind the curtain of secrecy. These people torture others because they are AFRAID. And the tortured for MARKETING REASONS.
The justification for torture was fear. Naked fear. Never forget this. It came from Saddam's interrogator.
it was also fear that allowed the american people to be sheeple in allowing our invaions of iraq to take place. should never have happened.
|
|
Slym
Ice climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
|
Dingus said: ...BECAUSE OF THE PANIC (felt by the public)
That's how representative political structures work...legitimacy of a number of different solutions is analyzed, the people choose what they want to see happen, or what would/wouldn't piss them off, and the government acts within those bounds (GENERALLY. I'm painting with a really broad brush, here).
I think that idea very much applies to the wikileaks situation. There's a split on whether or not the publishing of the leak is legitimate or not. The only difference, is that the government didn't act in this case. Instead, and autonomous group did.
Look at what Assange has targeted for the next megaleak -- banks. A bank.
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/an-interview-with-wikileaks-julian-assange/
I doubt anyone thinks that the banks need to be protected, if what he's leaking is fraudulent activity. So again, legitimacy. The people say it's ok to leak the banks and watch them get f*#ked over in the private sector, so it's gonna happen, and the government will have to act on it.
|
|
sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
|
how did fattrad get so fat? was it willful or just accidental, or perhaps coincidental?
p.s. please remove troops from afghanistan now. wasting lives on bullsh#t, is, well, just wasting lives.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
|
It seems to me that the obvious consequence of releasing all this material is that information about government decision and policy making will become even less transparent/accessible in the future. And that may well be the worst part of this whole episode.
g
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
http://wlcentral.org/
2010-11-30: ACLU issues statement on WikiLeaks, Cablegate
Submitted by admin on Wed, 12/01/2010 - 02:39
The American Civil Liberties Union has issued a statement on WikiLeaks and the Cablegate disclosures:
"The Wikileaks phenomenon — the existence of an organization devoted to obtaining and publicly releasing large troves of information the U.S. government would prefer to keep secret — illustrates just how broken our secrecy classification system is. While the Obama administration has made some modest improvements to the rules governing classification of government information, both it and the Bush administration have overclassified and kept secret information that should be subject to public scrutiny and debate. As a result, the American public has had to depend on leaks to the news media and whistleblowers to know what the government is up to.
Without whistleblowers such as Wikileaks who disclosed illegal activity, we wouldn’t know, among other things, about:
* the CIA’s secret overseas prisons
* the National Security Agency’s warrantless wiretapping program
* that civilian casualties from the war in Iraq are much higher than was thought
* that U.S. troops were going into battle without adequate body armor
There is certainly a narrow category of information that the government should be able to keep secret in order to protect national security and for other purposes. But the reality is that much more information has been classified by the U.S. government than should be, and information is often classified not for legitimate security reasons, but for political reasons — to protect the government from embarrassment, to manipulate public opinion or even to conceal evidence of criminal activity. When too much information is classified, it becomes more and more difficult to separate the information that should be made public from the information that is legitimately classified.
What the Wikileaks phenomenon means in the longer term — and how the government will respond — is still open to question. But two things are already clear. First, to reduce incentives for leaks, the government should provide safe avenues for government employees to report abuse, fraud and waste to the appropriate authorities and to Congress. Second, the Obama administration should recommit to the ideals the president invoked when he first came to office: “The government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears.”
Democracy, after all, depends on transparency. The American public has a right to know what the government is doing in its name."
Until our elected officials and MSM start doing their jobs, and then honestly, without fraud, corruption, illegal or immoral behavior there will always be a need for Wikileaks and other organizations doing the same thing - disclosing the truth.
Let the Sun Shine In.
Get used to it.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|