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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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I know it is silly to post on this topic, but feeling silly maybe.
If it was a rocket we would get reports from a very wide range of vantage points. If it came out of the sea from northwest of Catalina Island, then we would get the most reports from Catalina and from Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. When rockets launch from Vandenburg they are visible over a huge area. Ships all around the area would report it. Airplanes would report it. Flight 808 would have seen it and reported it, since they were in exactly the same place at the same time. Instead we keep reexamining a couple sets of photos and videos all taken from similar vantage point.
In the second photo above, the back of the plume is in sunlight while the front of the plume is in shade, since it is taken after sunset. If it was a rocket, the lower part of the plume would be in shade and the higher part of the plume would be in sunlight as the rocket climbed out of earths shadow into the high sunlight. If it is a jet contrail then the back of the contrail can be in sunlight because it is further west and the sun has not set on that part of the contrail yet. The contrail goes dark as it goes east and passes into earth's shadow.
What I thought was particularly interesting about the story was how it immediately became certain that it was a rocket and that it originated from a specific location. How all responses from officials were so easily twisted from, "We don't know what you are talking about. There were no rocket launches." to "They have no idea who might have launched this rocket or why!"
They did not bother to call anybody in Catalina or Ventura or Santa Barbara. They just made up their minds and ran with the story as it was. Which I guess, is probably a good way to create some excitement on a slow news day.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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north koreans in an Iranian sub for sure..
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Ya know, there could be a klimmer of truth to that.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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OK SuperTopians,
Let's put this thing to bed.
I need from those who are in L.A. to plot on a map where the helicopter was when the following picture was taken. I'm somewhat familiar with L.A. but then those of you who live there should be able to plot just about exactly where the helicopter was and looking at the distant landmass in the background these 2 points denote a line and we can draw this line far out to sea.
I want to then plot this line on Google Earth.
I've tried to find the exact lat. and long. for the helicopter when he filmed and shot this image, but to no avail.
Need help!!!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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Let's put this thing to bed. I couldn't agree more.
Klimmer = Glenn Simpson.
If I post that a bunch of times, perhaps anyone googling Glenn's name will come up with this thread.
Man up, have the courage of your (crackpot) convictions, put your name with your fantasies. OK?
(Same goes for the anonymous trolls on the political threads, like suap.)
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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this thing was put to bed yesterday. it's not even front page news any longer.
Calling Doctor Nash?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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just a point of logic. contrails are up in the sky. they don't originate in the ocean.
so if it's an airplane with a contrail heading east, the contrail would be up in the sky, as perhaps you could argue that it was, but then it would have proceeded overhead over los angeles, which it didn't.
so if it's going west, it would disappear into the far sky, which it did, but then it would've left a contrail overhead in los angeles, not coming out of the ocean.
hey, i hate airplanes and never wanted to fly. tell me why i'm wrong.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Because Tony, the earth is round.
Anything coming from a distance can appear to be rising from the surface if it leaves a contrail.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Tony,
Don't you know LA? Can you put a spot on a map for the helicopter taking the above footage?
Please someone do this.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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And contrails can stop abruptly due to changes in atmospheric conditions.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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Klimmer:
Think you should use Bing instead of Google Earth, they have had a couple of technical errors recently where countries are or not are, one today with Costa Rica and Nicaragua also Africa a few years back. Almost started a war.
Maybe google shot something and they are not telling us.
Take some sleeping pills,valium,vicodin,and bottle of whiskey, Works for me. Called "Tiger Wood's cocktail"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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Ok, just talked to a colleague in the science department who is from L.A. and he thinks the landmass is Palos Verdes and the helicopter is looking WNW (edit: actually WSW at 240 degrees) across Long Beach Harbor. Then we looked at Google Earth from an oblique perspective near the surface of the Harbor and it looks pretty much the same.
Anyone want to disagree with this assessment?
I will get it set-up and add the line going from the approximate location of the helicopter, to the end of Palos Verdes and straight toward the exhaust/vapor plume of the rocket high in the atmosphere and we will see where exactly it points.
My prediction:
It will show that there is no way that the Sun that set at 250 degrees on 11-8-10 could illuminate a contrail of a Jet from the WNW at 292.5 degrees to NW at 315 degrees.
The phenomenon witnessed is the exhaust/vapor plume of a launched rocket coming right smack out of the middle of the missile launch region West of Pt. Conception and the exhaust is back-lit by the setting Sun.
Edit:
Ok, wish I did this exercise earlier. Learned some new stuff.
From the helicopter's perspective to the tip of Palos Verdes, to the exhaust/vapor plume it is about 240 degrees WSW clockwise as measured from the North.
This is further South for the origin of the exhaust/vapor plume than I thought. Wish I knew the layout of L.A/Long Beach Harbor better from the get go. But it will still put it within the missile test zone easily, just more south than I imagined.
Still, we have the same issue, it is back-lit from the setting Sun at 250 degrees. Has to be. Since the exhaust/vapor plume is behind and then easily reaches above the Cirrus alpenglow lit up cloud that is in the foreground, and that Cirrus cloud is fully illuminated from below by the setting Sun.
So now the missile is in a new location, but still well within the missile test zone, further South than I thought, but still going WNW away from the coast and the exhaust/vapor plume is still back-lit by the setting Sun.
That, or jets now take-off out of the ocean heading WNW with a burning engine and leaving exhaust/vapor plumes.
(Sarcasm)
That, or the Sun has changed location only on 11-8-10, and the sunset ocurred much further WNW to NW of 250 degrees. But it did that just on Monday 11-8-10. Everything is back to normal now, and the Sun today continues to set near 250 degrees or slightly less from L.A.'s perspective.
(Sarcasm)
I will do a graphic over the weekend and post it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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not really jibing with the pictures we're seeing, fellas. contrails don't stop abruptly any more. they go on and on and on, especially mofos kickin' out stuff like that one. we're either looking at a far-back-from-way-west-in-the-ocean contrail comin' at ya--but then the news morons would'a seen it fly over their heads and realized it was just an airplane--or something coming out of the ocean and heading west, which jibes with the "klimmer of truth".
can't have it both ways. contrail out of the west would have continued eastward overhead. contrail from the east wouldn't be coming up out of the ocean. gotta be coming up out of the ocean, going west.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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OK, Klimmer,
To what purpose was that missle blasted?
g
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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Yes, Tony, contrails can start and stop abruptly. They can also disappear from our view due to distance, angle and changing lighting conditions, you know like around sunset.
You seem to be pushing the ballistic missile disappearing into space theory? It was going too damn slow for that. Even Klimmer has given up on that one.
Klimmer, sure, you will toss the tea leaves, burrow deep into noise and uncertainty, exploit ambiguity of terms, till you get the answer you desire.
Without knowing exactly where the helicopter was the moment that shot was taken, and the time, it's a fools game to locate where the object was, and what lighting conditions were present. Which makes you highly qualified for this task.
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richross
Trad climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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See my edit above. Learned something new. Will do graphic over weekend.
Edit:
Mono,
That is some 100% USDA Bull Dung you are shovelling there. We can get very close to the actual perspective and have. We know what time this all went down on 11-8-10.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Hardly, lets see how exact you can place the helicopter, and time, even assuming it was Palos Verdes.
And without a second perspective, you can only say it was on a given line, a line that has considerable error.
You know, as in triangulation, since you are trying to place it off Vandenburg somewhere.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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Mono,
You are still just shovelling Bull Dung.
The image/video was shot after Sunset. The Cirrus cloud in the foreground is completely illuminated with alpenglow. The missile exhaust/vapor plume is behind and went even higher than the Cirrus Cloud in the foreground.
If it was coming West to East toward the Coast and higher than the Cirrus cloud, then it would be fully illuminated from below just as the Cirrus Cloud is.
But it isn't. It is back-lit and going WNW away from the continental land mass having been just lauched from the missile test region at the times designated for it to do so.
By the way, found another source and discussion about this that shows the NOTAMS for Mariners is repeatable, they use the same one over and over, they just go on and on. So yes, Monday's missile launch was within the scheduled launch window.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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Haha, you've already thrown in so many assumptions. This will be fun.
Yes, the warning is in every weekly notice to mariners, at least the 6 I saw. That's because it is a permanent test area.
I don't deny that it is in their wide time slot. What's your point? Do they launch every day?
Stop claiming you have the evidence and just show us.
Have a good weeend!
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