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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 08:58am PT
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Fricken Joxy. HardMan Knott called it....
The thought of an armed Joxy is fairly terrifying.
DUCK!
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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wasn't making fun of your name blahblah, just said it was appropriate. They only part of that paper that supports what you are saying is his one, entirely speculative sentence in the conclusion. You guys think i'm saying you will accidentally shoot yourself (possible, but not the only thing that can go wrong). What I'm saying is that you having a gun will cause the criminal to get super violent when he otherwise wouldn't, that the criminal will find your gun and use it before you do, that you having guns will make you a specific target for criminals, etc...
all of these specific cases when a gun helped a person do not go against what i'm saying. you are all having the same brain failure that people have when it comes to global warming. one instance of snow in texas doesn't disprove the theory. For each one of those stories where a gun helped there are many more where the gun caused more harm than good. That is the point.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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For those who are trembling with fear about this...wait until March when the Supreme Court hears and rules on McDonald v. Chicago.
The infringements on the right to keep and bear arms are coming down...so you better get ready and buy some Depends diapers.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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ugh.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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Data? I don't have to show you no stinkin' data!
The issue is as clear as commons sense. Even the most enthusiastic supporter of the 2nd amendment will agree that there are some "arms" citizens should not be allowed to own or carry.
So the question of gun control really becomes an issue of where do we draw the line?
We have the right to draw the line... period! The question is where.
Ergo the freedom to carry certain arms is a flexible decision predicated on situational concerns.
Our freedoms in the bill of rights are always mediated by the situation we find ourselves in: you can't yell fire in a crowded theater and claim the right of free speech.
Freedom is a function of population and situation.
What's missing here is just a little common sense.
Not having firearms in National parks in the lower 48 makes perfect sense as it discourages hunting as well as lessening the possibility of a variety of misuse.
The right to carry is no right at all if it is mediated by the needs of public safety and environmental preservation on public property.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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You can shout FIRE in a crowded theatre, so long as the theatre is actually on fire.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Those who would give up liberty for security will soon have neither. The Second Amendment say nothing about "safety or security." It's a statement about the rights of free men.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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So the question of gun control really becomes an issue of where do we draw the line?
You're right Paul, but don't bother. In 20+ years of discussing this issue, I've never been able to get a gun enthusiast to discuss this crux of the issue. All you're gonna get is bumper sticker cliches, quaint references to patriots, and paraphrases of the 2nd amendment text.
We all agree that "yelling fire in a theater" (when there is no fire) is not proper free speech. But we can never discuss what is improper ownership of arms. It is taboo. The implied argument is that anything goes with guns (or even bigger weapons).
BTW: We do have to ask permission to exercise the right to "peaceably to assemble" in most public places. It's just a practical way to do things. No one sees it as some oppressive violation of rights. Rights can be regulated to reflect practical realities without taking the right away.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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I see the gun supporters as having been VERY accommodative up to this point on the restrictions allowed on their RIGHT to bear arms.
Can you provide some examples of this accommodation? It's a sincere question.
I asked this earlier. There are no examples on this thread that I can find.
How about some NRA or similar publication that actually discusses some reasonable, practical limits on the ownership of arms. Can you point me to one?
BTW. From what I can tell from your recent posts, you and I are in general agreement about gun rights and legislation. I do want to have a reasonable discussion, but it's always so elusive with this issue.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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So we compromised our right to bring a concealed, black, 20mm cannon into a courthouse for the purpose of pulling it out, waving it around and intimidating folks?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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Hope you shoot better than you ride.
Otherwise we're GONNA DIE!!!!!
It is a good day to die, but not by dipstick's hand.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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dktem--there are huge numbers of laws at the municipal, state, and federal levels restricting sales and possession of firearms and other weapons.
Maybe you can rephrase your question/issue to make it more intelligible--if your point is that weapons are unregulated in the US, that's so silly and wrong that you shouldn't be surprised that no one really wants to discuss it. Sun still rising in the East and setting in the West?
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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My question is clear enough.
We know that there are regulations. I never disputed that they exist.
Answer this:
1) What regulations would do you think should go and what should stay?
2) Do you think there should be any additional regulations?
(Don't answer by griping about all the regulations that already exist. We have plenty of that here already.)
It would also be useful to hear some justification. Who cares if black guns are illegal? How does that violate the spirit of the 2nd amendment. (Be careful not to use the "slippery slope" logical fallacy).
My point is that gun enthusiasts consistently refuse to answer these questions with anything less than "there should be no regulations."
Prove me wrong.
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hatestocarry
climber
gunks
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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When you're quoting the Constitution regarding the right to bear arms, what part of "A well-regulated militia..." didn't you understand?
The Constitution makes no reference whatsoever to an individual's right to bear arms. That omission on the part of the Constitution's framers was deliberate and well conceived.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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"the People" aren't individuals?
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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"Have / possess / carry whatever you want, and you can expect to be left alone by the Government unless you f&ck up"
Obvious response:
So if someone nukes a city, we can remedy that by throwing the perpetrator in jail.
Or do you want to take away his RIGHT to own the arm?
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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The Constitution makes no reference whatsoever to an individual's right to bear arms. That omission on the part of the Constitution's framers was deliberate and well conceived.
The Court has ruled otherwise. Read the thread from the beginning.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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dktem--
good job in correcting the the guy who THINKS he knows something about the 2nd Amendment (in fact, he knows LESS about it than someone who knows nothing at all--he has negative knowledge).
I hate to say "I told you so," but do you now see where I'm coming from in describing the frustrations of dealing with (many, not all) liberals? This guy could have read the thread and educated himself, but instead he chooses to weigh in on a subject he knows less than nothing about.
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