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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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In the 20's the Valley was considered crowded.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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jstan
The lines at the entrance gates on busy weekends in the mornings are unreal.
The traffic flow into the Valley on Saturday mornings on those busy weekends from the outside are unreal.
We have gridlocks of traffic flow trying to leave the east end Valley parking areas in the evenings on those weekends as you wouldn't believe sometimes. Without the traffic control unit operating nothing would move at all.
Traffic control manages just that and it's a huge job on those weekends.
All that outside lodging created a lot of traffic during the peak hours.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Humanoids are, frankly, nuts.
Climbers, included.
Some of us, at least, like to appear to be doing something godawful. Of course on the sly we get real good or we use those long stringy things so we are really not as crazy as we appear.
HD hikers are the same. Take a picture of the cables home to show the people at the office what you "DID." Then say very offhandedly, "People die on this!"
It is like having a christmas tree in your cubicle.
Edit:
Yeah John that's what I used to think. A gasping 17 mile hike for that? Till we met the little old lady from Tokyo. Smiling, having the time of her life in a place filled with only hundreds of people. Not thousands.
She was not even out of breath.
If I had had a rope along she would have wanted to go do a climb.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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He wrote: "As a result, Half Dome has become a weekend playground with children, flabby tourists and the elderly clambering up the slick granite on the sloping, 8,842-foot elevation mountain."
For starters, that's a 17 mile slog that features a litle altitude, so not so many flabby and elderly duffers are really up there. What's more, it's not true that young and hale means safe. Go up to those cables and watch Charles Atlas death gripping those cables while Fatty Calhoon scampers by like it's nothing.
"The weekend menagerie has turned one of the world's signature hikes into a flirtation with death as masses of climbers jostle around on the summit cables."
"A flirtation with death?" Really. Because of all the folks crammed on the cable? I do wonder why the whole conga line hasn't been taken out by a big porker ripping up top and starting the dominos falling - but who can say if it's more dangerous with more folks?
JL
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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HD has become a destination. Thirty years ago it was just another rocky bump.
That's true, even though thirty years ago was the peak of visitation and backpacking. What changed was the 1990s pop enthusiasm for peakbagging. Corporate America began to believe that climbing Everest was a metaphor for business success. Then you started seeing middle-management n00bs out of Texas doing corporate seminars in the Himalayas.
But I don't believe that the explosion of peakbagging-- and hence HD cables --will continue anymore than backpacking did. Corporate investment in mountaineering has crashed. After the depression, management psych will move on to the next fad. And the number of folks who can stay outside the park, then drive in, find a parking spot, and get up and down HD, is probably not statistically significant. HD cables will remain on the map, much as Whitney has, but in this particular case, the limits on total possible visitation make me less pessimistic than you.
Or maybe I'm just cynical. I'd much prefer to see those crowds swamping the Valley, turning the main trails into ant lines (or doing the same at Whitney), than to see them spread out in adjacent areas. I'm fine with having designated sacrifice zones to buffer the surround. The Valley in season is already an urban experience.
Each time I get out into the high Sierra, barely an hour or so away from the Valley, and find myself in quiet territory packed with wildlife and plants right off the road, I am grateful for those conga lines in the ditch.
The only other alternative-- muscle up the Wilderness Society and SC and litigate the doors shutin an attempt to keepy everyone out of the Park-- strikes me as political suicide. If we want to have a functional NPS system, we need to have broad political support, especially from the new demographics that now make up the San Joaquin Valley.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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It was about time someone wrote something really funny...
Largo:
What's more, it's not true that young and hale means safe. Go up to those cables and watch Charles Atlas death gripping those cables while Fatty Calhoon scampers by like it's nothing.
and, more seriously, klk:
I'd much prefer to see those crowds swamping the Valley, turning the main trails into ant lines (or doing the same at Whitney), than to see them spread out in adjacent areas. I'm fine with having designated sacrifice zones to buffer the surround. The Valley in season is already an urban experience....If we want to have a functional NPS system, we need to have broad political support, especially from the new demographics that now make up the San Joaquin Valley.
exactly on target, imo.
don't see how others are so willing to discount the value of having so many people summit HD
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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Kerwin:
You are absolutely right in most of what you say. I don't think, however, corporations having climbers come talk to them plays much of a role.
But what people here on ST seem to be missing is that for the NPS, and for us, this is
a decision point.
Are we consciously going to decide to make HD Disneyland North.
Or shall we choose another path?
I don't want to draw attention away from the line immediately above as that is the core of what is happening. But you all are familiar with pictures of the ratty ferrata in China that keeps cropping up on the net? Some have asked why all those locks are clipped into the chain. The locks are sold to the tourists for that use. So that at the end of their adventure they can feel something permanent has been accomplished. Something of themselves has been left behind in that forbidding place.
Climbers who want so badly to do a FA do nothing different. We all were struck from the same mold.
People are desperately in search of something. So this is the decision we have to make.
HD is a natural resource.
Do we commit HD in the attempt to fill that need? Or do we use HD to fulfill some other, equally important - need.
Edit:
DMT beat me on mentioning the ferrata in China. Got to learn to type faster.
Hate these miserable buggers who type faster than me.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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It's remarkable that many who have posted here in favor of the NPS permit proposal are so willing to sign on wholesale. They don't dig in and try to improve it, say making it a first-come-first-serve system, or reserving a certain number for 6 am, or the night before--whatever. They don't even question the numbers, 300 for day hikers, 100 included in Wilderness permits (how many with heavy packs are gonna climb HD?).
From my stance, I'm inherently suspicious of those who are instantly ready to sign on the NPS's dotted line, no adjustment to the fine print.
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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When I worked with Huell Howser on the Half Dome show (doing my part to attract more hordes), we spent an hour mid-way up the cables interviewing folks as they went by. I couldn't believe the way some people were equipped, and was inspired in a weird way to see a smiling 10 year old, who made it up there and back in a day in flip flops, and the grandma's, and the sweating fat men, and the whole wild mess of international humanity who were seeking that experience of summit accomplishment that we all live and breathe regularly.
Sorry I don't go along with the herd here that likes to slam NPS, and assumes that any regulation is only going to make things worse. I am for more education always, and a simple permit system might be the most efficient way to get info into the hands of the masses. Multi-language brochures that explain the realities and dangers should improve the odds, and some info steering some folks to the less crowded days should have a positive impact.
I even think a simple permit to climb El Cap, with poop-tubes for sale at that point, would also be an effective way to spread good info reducing trash, traffic jams, and possibly some rescues. Go ahead and throw your stones, I am good at ducking!!
There are so many cliffs and peaks to climb away from the hordes, I like to go to those places, and when I want to climb in the Valley Circus, I don't blame NPS for seeking solutions to help keep more of us clowns from trashing the place or triggering a rescue.
Peter
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Peter,
You are mistaken to say that those critical of the NPS permit proposal simply like to bash the NPS.
I'm sure, if you thought about it, you could come up with a critique of some NPS policies.
You also make my point: you are too ready to sign on the dotted line. This thread is full of ideas--most of them written by people against the proposal. Let's see you improve the permit idea, if you like it--or otherwise engage. It wasn't hatched perfect, that's for sure.
As for El Cap permits, having actually made an incredibly bold statement there, I hope you won't be ducking, but defending it.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Dingus,
A knee-jerk reaction against the NPS would not involve as many constructive ideas as produced here by the crowd "against." Fact is, the NPS has the power, ain't goin' nowhere, and don't need yer kind assistance--except to improve their proposals.
A knee-jerk reaction against would be: "the NPS is inherently bad, stay with the stautus quo," which would make no sense, as you point out.
Ready to maybe lead you up After Six, my man, after maybe a bit more work on the pink route in the kiddy corner.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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John--
The corporate seminar phenomenon is just the visible layer of a real causal force.
The peakbagging and Outdoor Industry boom of the last two decades has been driven by two things: Unprecedented corporate investment and a war economy that includes an alpine theater. The faddish corporate investment is over. I don't expect the peakbagging spike of the 1990s-2000s to continue at the same pace, absent one of its primary economic drivers.
And I wish we were at a decision point, but I think the NPS has already done what it's going to do and will continue to do in incremental steps, namely introduce more and more specialized permits, licenses, and user fees.
The end game? Eventually a permit/lottery system simply to even enter the Valley as we now have for Whitney.
Disneyland on HD? The Valley (in season) has been nothing else since the early Curry era.
I just don't see good functional alternatives. I wish I did. Where should those people go instead? Up 108? Conness? King's Canyon? Sequoia? So we can zoo out seven or eight areas instead of one? Should they stay home and play video games? Grow vegetables at home? In a perfect world, I'd be happy with those last two alternatives, but then you'll give up any popular investment in or support for National Parks.
We could take Ed Abbey's line, and urge the federal government to end all immigration, seal the borders, and institute a one family-one child procreation policy along the Chinese model. A small but active faction in the environmentalist movements has been pushing this idea for several decades now. But it's not a physical let alone a political possibility.
DMT-- Yes, the Chinese example is on point. As would be other Via Ferrata in Asia or the Alps.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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Way to go Maysho!
So it looks like we have all reached agreement? Tarek is on board. Wants to make suggestions on the permit system. Cool. Send them in or even post them here. Without a doubt they will get transmitted to the NPS.
Kerwin:
Much of the driving force behind all of this is something within each person.
(Until Moosejaw's Pink Lady came along I was able to safely say the corporates had never influenced me at in any way. Ah well. Nothing lasts forever.)
Everything can be changed. Everything. Literally.
We need only ask what is that something in each of us.
What is it?
In forty years of arguments about bolting, for example, no one has ever actually asked that question.
Indeed it seems very few, even here on ST, understand,
What is it that we seek?
Why do we seek it?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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Tarek is on board. Wants to make suggestions on the permit system.
yes, if the full array of possibilities includes not having a permit system for the long-term.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 10, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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Kerwin: Much of the driving force behind all of this is something within each person.
John, that's the residue of yr Scots Protestantism talking.
Heh.
Studying cultural history has left me with little faith in self-improvement as a basis for politics, on the crag or off. You are one of the only folks I know who regularly models a constructive alternative. I try to do the same when I'm actually at the crag. Locally, it can be influential as you demonstrated in the Gunks.
Peter, your suggestion that each permit contact is good because it provides a visitor education opportunity, is the best argument I've seen for permits. But I'm still not persuaded. I've watched enough tourists on enough kinds of via ferrata in the Alps, and in big enough numbers (all running w/o permits), to become really unenthused about our current approaches to visitor management in high visitation areas.
Beef up the stanchions on the Cables route and folks could run via ferrata rigs in four lines w/o even needing extra cables. It happens all the time in the Alps w/o the handwringing and grief and the soon-to-become-mandatory-NPS-how-to-climb-our-substandard-pos-american-made-via-ferrata-pamphlets that will be littering HD by the thousands.
Some of the posters here will immediately complain that Yos isn't the Alps, that the Alps are crowded and full of foreigners, Europe is socialist, etc.
But the Valley is and has been the Alps for almost a century now. Except that it has worse food, more regulations, and a crummier, stupider, and more dangerous via ferrata.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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http://www.mount-whitney.com/mt_whitney_permits.php
"A Permit For The Mt. Whitney Zone Is Required No Matter Where Or When You Start.
"A lottery, beginning each February 15th, assigns advance reservations for the quota period on the Mt. Whitney Trail.
"The Mt. Whitney Zone limits day use (100 daily); overnight (Mt. Whitney Trail, 60 daily); Trail Crest exits (west entry - east exit, 25 daily) while quotas are in effect.
"All applications must be submitted by snail mail. No fax, internet, email or phone applications are accepted.
"Applications must be submitted with a $15 fee per person; payable by Visa, Matercard (sic), or check to “USDA Forest Service”.
"There are NO REFUNDS"
Mt Whitney is higher elevation and may not support as much traffic, but what makes us think that, in the end, the NPS will permit 400 daily HD permits in addition to the traffic from traditional climbing routes?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Hey klk. Thanks for your posts. How can we apply the Alps model to HD? What do you feel is preventing that from being "a good functional alternative"?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 10, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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How can we apply the Alps model to HD? What do you feel is preventing that from being "a good functional alternative"?
I think the best sites in the Alps do a better job of managing high visitation mountain environments than we do. I think we do a better job of managing low visitation environments. I'd prefer to see most of the Sierra remain a low visitation environment. But for the one place that's already running Euro-style numbers, Yosemite Valley, I'd rather see something closer to a European model.
On HD cables route, that might mean beefing up the stanchions so that hikers could run (optional) via ferrata rigs. Since you could run either side of either cable, you'd immediately double capacity. Build in a limited number of pullouts for emergency use. Total capacity would remain restricted the way it is in Zermatt, by the total number of beds available in the Valley. Let the concessionaires rent and sell vf gear like they do all over the Alps. Some folks would use them, some wouldn't. C'est la vie. Someone w/o gear dies on route, the survivors have that much less ground for suing NPS. You'd probably reduce fatalities to lightning strikes.
Since the NPS has already instituted a permit system, this ain't gonna happen. And even if the permit system wasn't already grinding into motion, the other imaginable objections:
First, the stanchions might have to be fixed, which would violate the fiction that by taking the thing down in the winter, it doesn't constitute a permanent structure, installation or improvement.
Second, the anti VF crowd would go all Pavlov over the degradation of climbing, the rise of consumerism, etc.
Third, the folks who hope to reduce all Valley visitation to something like 19th century levels might threaten litigation or even sue to prevent it.
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other
Trad climber
LA, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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Night hike!!
What is the penalty for not having a permit? If you attempt to hike beyond the subdome or up the cables without a valid permit, a ranger will turn you away at or near the subdome. Additionally, you could face misdemeanor charges—up to a $5,000 fine and/or six months in jail.
The ranger may not be stationed 24 hours per day, however, other rangers will be patrolling the corridor and rangers may be stationed at the subdome at any time. Regardless of whether a ranger is present, you must have a permit in possession in order to hike beyond the base of the subdome (including the Half Dome cables). The ranger checking the permits will be stationed in the area of the subdome and will not allow any person without a permit beyond the base of the subdome.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Feb 10, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Beefing up the stanchions might be possible while still keeping them temporary. Some adjustable screw expansion sleeve.
klk has really nailed it on the desirability of keeping visitation high to HD and similar places. I still question the need for permits at all, but, for those who support them, consider this low-bureaucracy "permit" idea, maybe someone else came up with it and I missed it:
You get to the shoulder and there is an unobtrusive pole there with x number of "permits" to go up the cables on it. When they are gone, the exposed base tells you to wait to ascend until one comes back in. Each permit has written warnings, asks that you kindly stay no more than t on the summit, and that you return the permit after descending. They also say "property of the NPS" on them. On M-Th, the pole is covered.
Fire away...yes some people will take them, ignore them, etc. But get busy improving the permit approach, if you like it. I might grumble about this approach, but I would accept it. It's simple, free to the user, and does not involve hoofing it around the Valley or listening to some tedious lecture.
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