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Binks
Social climber
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If one can identify the triggers, it might be that they can beat it without the meds, but then again maybe not. It is not at all the same as feeling down, which any normal person feels from time to time. It's a loss of control.
Heimdalsgate Like a Promethean Curse (Of Montreal)
I'm in a crisis
I need help
Come on mood shift, shift back to good again
Come on mood shift, shift back to good again
Come on, be a friend
Chemicals, don't flatten my mind
Chemicals, don't mess me up this time
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Back of beyond
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how about an anxiety disorder tied to depression...it sucks! can't venture out to the crag without it bringing on a full fear and loathing episode. supporting and patient friends help, and a personal acceptance of who and what i am help, coupled with an understanding that its an incredibly mysterious journey that i'm on help....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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For me the meds made me feel like crap physicaly and they also made me feel dependant emotionaly as well as reinforcing the mental imagry that I was messed up. Oh poor Me, I have to take my medicine.... Additionaly there is the probobility of abuse when they give stuff like Zanax and halcion as suplements to the long term stuff.. I have also seen other people have bad results with meds. I feel pretty strongly that the meds should be a last resort and many docs seem to go the other way. feel bad? here take this and we all make more$$$$
That being said i have also seen some good results from meds.. It ain't easy........
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Hey Mooser Thanks so much for having the really big balls to share with us.
You've got a prayer coming your way from me.
Depression is tough and I admire you for posting in such a forthright and honest way.
I suffer from an anxiety disorder and I have had some really great panic attacks out at the crag-usually the bear wins with me and I have my friends do the leading and I'll buy the beer.
Out of the mouths of babes- we're at the city and my son asks "Daddy how come you never lead?????????"
Helps to laugh about it and not take any of it too seriously for me. It's been a pretty good teacher in a sledge hammer way
all the best
Dan
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I don't believe I saw this in any other posts:
Your regular Doctor can prescribe anti-depressants. If he/she's got a good medical history on you they can monitor your prescribed medication and then follow your health. The follow up is CRITICAL. Anti-depressants can be very dangerous and they affect each of us differently. Also, once started it's very dangerous to change the dosage or quit or change drugs without careful medical followup.
Then your Doc can recommend psychiatrists or psychologists for you to follow up with.
What's the difference between a psychiatrist and psychologist? The psychIATRIST is an MD and can prescribe meds, the psychologist isn't and can't.
Your friend should definitely seek professional help. Would they ignore a debilitating and potentially lethal physical condition?
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Depression is a bear that I'm dealing with for the third time around. The right dose of medication can help get your brain out of the rut. Talking about it with friends and family is really important to keep the proper perspective. Trying to will yourself out of it is about as effective as trying to will yourself out the flu.
I thought JEleazarian's post about a possible correlation between climbing and depression was interesting. I wonder if the need to punish oneself on the rock and the brain's reward chemistry when one succeeds puts you at greater risk of depression.
Good luck
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all, say, not sure if this will help... as this is too long term, but still... it is good info to have on the side:
there is a key, to any and all depression...
whether it is a physical key, chemical key, or a mental key, or emotional key, depends on the person/situation at hand...
time, comes into play here, and getting to know the person...
certain types of depression are connected with persoanlity disorders, too...but--you will only learn this, due to being part of the inner circle of the live of this said-person (due to the fact that many personality disorders are and can be "masked" to outsiders)...
once the KEY is found, it is still a long process to wellness, love and patience and decerning how to behave in helping the one that is depressed--being that if done wrong, it hinders it...
but--these folks DO need loyal friends, being that no one else may know when the danger signs of suicide may be there....
if it is oneself in question, one must read up on any and all info, and be determined to do what you learn must be done to combat this (and to humble oneself, to admit it)... keeping at least one good friend informed is really needed in case one backslides from this hard agenda of seeking for answers and "a battle plan"...
praying and understanding god in ones life, naturally will help--if one is honestly ready and willing to take steps in looking at themselves and what is going on in their lives, honestly...
i've had three hard times, with depressino pounding on my door---it camped out on my porch for quite a spell, but by god's grace, it got no further... but i sure did a heap of learning about it, and found my own way to get it off my porch... it only drifted back during the exceptionall long hard seasons of "a harshly bad winter" (meaning situation, not real winter).... yet, knowing what to do each time and having a good friend to share with, gave me victory...
now: the depression that i've helped others with, or have seen in others, was FAR more scary, as it involved anothers live, and not mine... one never really knows for sure how anothers life will fair, if they are alone at such times as this....
keep your friends in mind and listen to your heart if something feels wrong and go and see them.... please, do...
*ooops, but say, please also remember, we are not god, and we can't do it all.... if something does go wrong, it is not your fault if you know you have done all you were allowed to do...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nutjob, Sorry this took so long, but I was called away.
If your mom had been diagnosed, then she likely needs meds. People have varying degrees of problems and sometimes can avoid meds, but others can't. It really depends on how chronic the situation is, whether the person can cope at all without meds, what the source of the depression is, and how hard the person is willing to work on themselves. But please don't think that it is just a matter of how hard you work at it. That is only one of the variables.
Like in every area of medicine. There are great doctors and terrible ones. I have seen the gamut and could tell some genuine horror stories. Such as being committed on a 5150 and having the admitting nurse take a dislike to me and stick me in a lockdown room with a true nutjob. heh heh.. 6' 8" , 300 pounds of angry human being with a propensity to sh#t on everything. And me just having had surgery and hadn't slept in 2 weeks because of the pain. Now that was fun. Yeehaw. Are we having fun yet???? Oh yes, depression can make pain meds not work, because your brain just can use them or reacts differently to them.
Situational depression is very different. It can become a chronic problem that requires meds, but often the meds are only needed for a short time to give the person the energy to change their life. Hopefully they decide to change, but our med system is not geared for helping them get this kind of help. It is geared towards meds, and yes, I believe that meds are over prescribed.
What happens with situational depression is that a person has an event that causes them heartache or emotional pain. They dwell on it and start a cycle of thoughts that lead to depression. Like "I will never find another woman" or some such thing. Words like never and always that are said over and over are capable of programming our minds.
Then what happens is our minds really do control much of our physical well being. What happens is the person doesn't eat right, they don't get out in the sun enough, they don't get exercise, and then the body stops producing all those good chemicals that it needs to help you feel okay. Such as Dopamine, Serotonin, and noradrenaline.
Reversing this can be accomplished by just doing all these things that are good for you. But sometimes peoples brain chemical balance wont readjust and so a few courses of meds can help accomplish this, plus sometimes they just don't have the energy and once again meds can reactivate them to get going again. A course is generally considered to be six weeks.
On the other hand, more chronic forms of depression such as clinical depression or bipolar disease have their roots in physical problems. Perhaps your body doesn't produce enough of one of the trimonamines, and this leads to your not feeling right. Severe low levels can be very difficult on a person.
An interesting discovery in the last 5 years has to do with folic acid. Folic acid or folate is vitamin B 9. What the study discovered was that 7 out of 10 people with chronic depression were low in L Methylfolate. L Methylfolate is the form of folate that crosses the blood brain barrier. It takes 4 steps for the body to turn synthetic folic acid into L methylfolate and 3 steps to turn natural sources of folate. Which is why a B complex vitamin is recommended.
Yet what the study discovered was that these people with low levels also did not have enough of the enzymes that the body needs to turn folic acid into L methylfolate. So no matter how much Vitamin B 9 you had in your diet, you would not produce enough of the L methylfolate to help yourself. They found a gene that is missing or messed up in these people who don't produce enough of the enzymes. So they came out with some products like Deplin that cut right to the chase.
I recently started on this and it seems to be helping. but I am also having fairly severe side effects. So we will see.
Well, I am not certain if I answered your question or not. but fire away if you want more info. As you can see, I am sorted of loaded with info, having dealt with this for so long.
I answered Tami in an email as my beliefs about how to deal with this center around what I believe about the spiritual nature of life and the possibility of dark spirits. I didn't figure this forum was up for that so I answered her in private. haha
This is too long, so fini.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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This thread has had some good responses.
I'll chime in from personal experience too--have your friend
seek professional help. They'll need to be diagnosed
correctly by a good dr or therapist, but if medication
is necessary they will need to see a psychiatrist--I feel
it's better to see one of these who are really practiced
and up on all treatments rather than just let a gp prescribe
prozac or some other ssri.
It's not an easy thing to admit, nor is it at times to treat.
But professional help is out there, and in my case it's been
the best thing for me.
I wish you and your friend the best.
Steve
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Manjusri
climber
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What is the best response to things like: " It's just how I am" ,or " I feel like I bring you down"...?
Maybe just acceptance. Sounds like s/he is interpreting your intended encouragement as criticism. Sometimes people need to know that you accept them as a whole person, moods and all. If they don't bring you down, let them know. If they do and its a problem, work something out so they can bow out gracefully when the darkness strikes.
There are a lot of different kinds of depression. In my admittedly narrow experience I'm impressed by the efficacy of clinical counseling with a good therapist, and highly suspicious of pills. My own personal demons are best held in check by getting outdoors and active regularly and a good climb is something akin to an exorcism. So the best thing a buddy can do for me when I'm in a funk is drag me out to the crag.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I have a number of wonderful friends who suffer from depression. It can be a complicated thing and we shouldn't judge them based on how things work for us....so
1. Don't take things personally. You're friend might fall into a dark place once in awhile and it's not about you.
2. The treatments for depression are often incomplete and replete with side effects nearly as bad as depression itself. Still, it's important to get well checked out by somebody. In addition to clinical depression and it's serotonin drug treatments, Thyroid issues and inability to metabolize folic acid are a couple examples of things that can heavily contribute to depression. THere are effective treatments for Hypothyroid and Deplin is a new prescription food that can supplement or substitute for antidepression meds.
3. The only normal people are those who you don't know very well. We're all bozos on this bus.
4. Love is a good thing to give all your friends, depressed or not.
Peace
karl
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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What Nutjob said:
re: chronic situations, chronic situational depression (vs acute)
"I think this can come up when people find themselves living a life that is not congruent with what their heart and spirit want. Examples might include being in a marriage or a career that are not a good match for the person.
"Some people might want to seek meds because that is easier than rebuilding your life from scratch and abandoning everything in your life to which you may have your identity anchored. That takes courage, but it also takes some luck in finding support and guidance that points you in a healthy direction that resonates with your inner sense of what you need.
"That said, I don't to dismiss the very real results that can be achieved with medication. Maybe there's more than one way to skin a cat?"
That's what I had in mind, too.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Man, a lot of insightful, poignant stuff here. You all rock!
Though, if I get depressed, I'm calling Beatrix...
not literally, but if you get it going in the morning, the day never turns bad....
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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She is cute.
(Even sticking her tongue at you.)
Wish she lived in Tahoe,
I would show her around Woodfords.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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great posts everyone,
only a tiny tidbit here:
it is beginning to become clear that
certain neurotypes can have highly
atypical reactions to meds, as often
found in the ADD/ADHD/Aspergers
spectrum - still, for some short term
meds can help.
still, be careful.
cannot stress enough the importance
of diet, excersise etc.
best wishes to your friend.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Best medicine for depression is sunbathing, exercise, lots of good water and healthy food. Also, get a dog or two as having pals around that love and depend on you makes a big difference. Getting lots of sunlight thru the skin and eyes does wonders. Get out of the house with your dog and hike and explore and get back to the basics of life and next thing you know, no depression. It works!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'm in treatment for depression. And I study brain chemistry. So I have a few things to say here.
And I'm jumping straight to comment before I read through, something I usually avoid.
Depression is an organic disease. Yeah, we "know" that, but in spite of what we know -- what I have known for years, right down to the electron micrographs of weak serotonin response -- I still catch myself thinking of it as a character flaw. It's insidious.
"Charm" is a hallmark of depressed people. So your friend is almost certainly masking his symptoms to some degree considerably beyond the 1% you quote. I'm saying it's probably more serious than you -- or even he -- think.
The average depressed person waits ten years before seeking treatment. Yet every episode over those years makes the organic picture worse. The disease is progressive. Urge him to seek help now.
Drugs can really help. Prozac is a miracle for me. But it's different for each, and a good psychiatrist fully earns his keep in careful diagnosis and artful treatment. His art is based on science, because you are a unique biochemical system, not the norm-point of a study.
Beyond meds, talk therapy has helped me even more. Here I'm not referring to analyzing f#cked-up childhoods. What's helped me is awareness of patterns of depressive mood and downward spirals of thinking. When I notice myself in one, I can duck out of it. And that take-control shift of my mind-space feeds back directly into the robustness of my serotonin system. I'm saying that depressive thinking and even moods are habits, like biting your fingernails. Habits can be broken.
I'll stop for now and read upthread. Your friend is lucky to have you, and is willing to ask for help. This is the best era there has ever been for helping depression. We know more and we have a shelf of good drugs.
Cheers (seriously),
Doug
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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re: talk therapy (aka cognitive therapy)
"Here I'm not referring to analyzing f#cked-up childhoods. What's helped me is awareness of patterns of depressive mood and downward spirals of thinking. When I notice myself in one, I can duck out of it. And that take-control shift of my mind-space feeds back directly into the robustness of my serotonin system. I'm saying that depressive thinking and even moods are habits, like biting your fingernails. Habits can be broken."
I think this is right on, Doug. Add to Nutjob's.
Moreover, I still think it's helpful to think
as much in terms of neuro circuitry as neuro chemistry.
(That's from what I gathered from working a decade in neuroscience,
control engineering and electronics engrg environment.)
EDIT 9:40a: One more: I bet just as there might be a positive correlation
between (a) climbers and depression, as some have pointed out upstream,
I bet when it's all sorted out there's another one between
(b) problem solvers (those inclined, say by genetics, to problem solving) and depression. Just sayin.'
We are the premiere problem solving species on the planet.
We evolved as problem solvers. Involves tradeoffs. Carries costs.
re: discontent to depression continuum: Nature's way?
Food for Thought: A nation, world or subculture on Prozac might mean
a nation, world or subculture with less attention to, performance in, interest in, problem solving.
But then again, it depends on "what matters," a very subjective thing.
Performance in problem solving might not be the #1 goal.
For some, moments as well as individuals, just feeling some joy in life might be.
Just sayin.
Studly says:
"get a dog or two as having pals around that love and depend on you makes a big difference."
IMO, another strategy for the quiver at least worth trying for some.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Since I'm the one who raised the negative correlation between climbing performance and self-esteem on this thread, let me add a bit more.
Of all professions, lawyers have, by far, the greatest levels of depression. I have not seen a cogent explanation of why, but the statistics certainly convinced me. Perhaps we expect to win 'em all, and if so, our lives won't be congruent with reality (see others' posts, above.)
All I know for sure is that there are numerous types, causes and cures for depression. If the situation is chronic, however, and if it really interferes with one's life, get professional help -- and take any talk of suicide seriously! In most cases, friendly advice about how to change one's habits, outlooks or lifestyles won't help, and may hurt.
John
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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John, good points.
Long time ago, I learned that doctors topped the list.
Maybe it's shifted now?
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