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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Ron,
Sigi and his wife just built a house down the way from me, and just saw Banny last month. Looks the exact same.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Okie dokie... I think I got it this time...
I'm just funning around here, so don't get too carried away.
And yes, I have been down the guidebook route several times.
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Rocktrol
Trad climber
Reno , NV
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I think a guide book (for the WOODFORDS)is going to help a lot of people in the climbing comunty . Its the best place around the refine crack skill .
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jwh
climber
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I'm sure all this man-banter is normal when this type of thing happens.
I'm pretty stoked on the prospect of a new guidebook.
I've never been there, so i'll probably ruin the place too... but i'll try to be courteous, quiet and pack out my trash while i'm ruining it. :)
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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hey chim-
i don't think that people don't appreciate the information that you have been willing to give. i think people started to gripe because of the constant Woodford threads. when you first posted info regarding the area the feedback was very positive, but as time went on and the thread topics kept popping up is when I started to see negative feedback.
woodfrods is an obscure area and most people like it that way. Post up what ou know and then let it be. the constant begging for people to go there makes it sound like a "cleaning" party. Many of the climbs are dirty at first, but then turn in to real gems after some climbing them.
I think that telling people to go ahead and "regurgitate the same old climbs, over and over" turned some people off. people climb at the Leap and Donner, because the climbing is good, and I like climbing at the leap, donner, and woodfords because it is good.
not trying to give you a hard time Chim, just some feedback. You have done some great work up there and you are a great steward of the area, keep it up.
As far as land issues and guidebooks go- guide books DO NOT CREATE new climbers but instead takes the existing climbers and spreads them out. If there is a new guidebook for a certain area then amybe places like the leap or donner may have less traffic.
I say we let Woodfords be what it is, a quiet out of the way climbing spot. It will never be a destination spot the approaches will keep the masses away.
take care
dave
p.s. I think that "One of these days" is much better than Tombstone, maybe the best single pitch of 5.10 in the Tahoe area. Just my opinion which means diddly squat.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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he chim-
You are definetly not a D#@%head. You are a really cool dude that only means well. Your love for the area and all the hard work is greatly appreciated by many, including myself.
don't get down by the negative feedback.
Again i think it is just the constant posting of Woodfords that has gotten some people upset. For instance right now there are three topics regarding woodfords on the front page. always post when it is appropriate, but also let the peacefullness and solitude of Woodfrods remain for what it has been the last couple of decades.
Hey if I can help get the word out through my shop for a trail building day let me know?
take care
dave
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City
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Hey Chim. Just let everyone wander around Woodfords like I did for two years until I ran into you. You then showed me around the area for the last 3 years and now I know the area and climbs. Screw everyone else and let them pay their admission fee like I did.
Just kidding man.. Keep working on the guide and we can decide how it goes out..........at least you have the information to pass on however YOU feel right. I know you and its definateley not about "fame of FA's". That comment is total BS from someone you has never met you.
Like Ron said. a guide for there is more about history of the area. Some of us actually give more of a sh#t about that than anything else.
Shawn
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jstan
climber
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Dave:
"As far as land issues and guidebooks go- guide books DO NOT CREATE new climbers but instead takes the existing climbers and spreads them out. If there is a new guidebook for a certain area then amybe places like the leap or donner may have less traffic."
In the 70's New York State used the same argument for taking down lean-tos in the Adirondacks. Spread people out and you will have the same total damage but it will be less apparent. In this case we are arguing that spreading people out will make for less perceived crowding.
In New York they found the damage, while of the same total degree was much more apparent in the "virgin" areas. So the perceived damage actually went up and furthermore it was now so spread out that remediation was made very difficult.
I felt then, and still do, that artificial efforts to redirect people is a solution to nothing. It just changes the problems faced to worse ones. NY should have said, Well people want to go where they want to go. We need to harden and maintain the heavily travelled areas around the lean-tos and maintain the trails.
This will also maintain diversity in experience.
Diversity in experience is, after all, why we have created this thing we call "wilderness" in the environmental laws.
Ron's well meaning efforts follow the same thinking that NYS followed and on which they actually had to backtrack. It does not work. The negative feedback he is getting is just the leading wave for the recognition that it will, ultimately, not work here either.
People want to be able to choose from a variety of experience. Putting all areas through the "guidebook blender" and making everything the same mush is wanted by no one. You can see this in the posts already.
Another example is the effort to build trails in climbing areas. For very popular climbs we build an unobtrusive trail that gets people where they want to go without producing braiding and widespread damage. When this first became a problem, like Ron now, people were making the argument that we need to spread people out. Where that was followed we got a mess that was visible everywhere and the problem, as perceived, went from bad to worse.
And it was much harder to find a climb where you actually could hear leaves moving in the breeze.
On another tack:
Earlier Ron made mention of his experience in the NFS. Beginning certainly from the time of the Louisiana Purchase policies of the US government and later in the NFS and BLM has been to encourage use and resource extraction as much as possible so as to permit improved life among the pioneers. If you look at things like the Homestead Act and policies of agencies like the NFS, that is historically what you see. Indeed the Bush administration's rewriting of the NFS and even NPS procedures explicitly calls out this intent, including the building of roads generally on public lands. Yesterday the courts challenged this road building saying no consideration was given to the legal requirement of an EIS.
Starting with Teddy Roosevelt the argument for conservation of the land began to get traction even though being fought by those with interest in profiting from resource extraction. That fight goes on even today in the Valley itself.
At its worst this debate shows up in policies for the removal of mountain tops in coal mining. Cheaper coal/higher profits are produced by weakening environmental rules so that tailing may be dumped in streambeds.
While the people MAY get cheaper coal they will SURELY find they have no good water to drink.
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Tahoe climbr
Trad climber
south lake tahoe CA
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Ok ok, I was obviously WAY too harsh on Chim-chim and Ron and in doing so I don’t think I got across the point I was trying to make. First of all Dan I know you and think you are a great guy, I also think all the hard work you are doing in the canyon is great and if anybody deserves recognition for what he has done in the canyon it is you. You shouldn’t have to put up routes under an alias dude!!! I don’t think you are tying to get rich or famous and that isn’t what I care about. Ron your old guide was the first guide book I ever owned so I should probably thank you instead of give you a hard time. I appreciate that you are recording the history of the place and I for one would like to know more about the pioneers of the area. The point I was trying to make is, like Dave said, Woodfords is a cool, low key, obscure, area and I think a largely distributed guide book would change that. I think if you did an underground type guide, that some of the other areas close to there have, it would be closer to the tradition of climbing that is the canyon. That way we wouldn’t have to worry as much about access and impact issues, people that want to climb there could get the info on trails and routes that they need, we all could climb some cool new routes, the people that put up new route could get credit, people would be informed of the history of the place, but we could keep the feel of the canyon that people like. We don‘t need to advertise. I actually would like a “low key” guidebook and climb new routes I don’t know about, I just don’t want to walk into an REI in New Jersey and see a guidebook for Woodfords Canyon on the shelves. I think we both love the canyon and the only reason I posted is because I would be mad at myself if I never said anything and ten years down the road the place was ruined with over use/love. Sorry about being a D*&k.
Oh ya, Ron I might be a “new wave zippy” but I had to look up what LOL and LMAO in the urban dictionary, so either you have teen daughters or you are an adolescent texting valley girl. LOL
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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jstan-
I do not argue the fact that if an increase of users at a "virgin" area does grow then the percieved damage will be greater. My thought is that a guide book for a new area comes out then it will increase the use at one area and reduce at another.
Look at how much people complain how crowded the popular areas are. A new book will get people to go elsewhere. People are going to go climb with or without guidebooks. Because a new guide comes out does not equate into a new influx of new climbers.
Not really sure how a scenario that tokk place in New York during the seventies has any relavance to climbing guidebooks int he current timeline.
But it is worth a thought anyways.
take care
dave
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I agree that climbers doing FAs or guide books just for the sake of screaming "look at me" are pretty annoying. But I have tried the FA thing and didn't like all the cleaning/time/effort it took.
So if it takes some egos to create clean, high quality climbs with enough information (or guide books) to find and climb them. I say bring it on. (Even if I continue to post about annoying egos).
Chim, I live in the greater area, have climbed there a few times and would love to have a detailed guide book. Keep up the work. But as has been pointed out, if you want to entertain yourself spraying on the internent, somebody is going to come back at you.
I understand, and have mixed feelings on, the lets keep an obscure area obscure. This means either a lot of time exploring on your own (nothing wrong with that, but I would rather climb) or finding out about an area is based on who you know to share topos or take you out and show you things (which rubs me the wrong way). After climbing almost 20 years in the area, I like to still be able to get on new climbs without spending days finding the ones worthwhile (or days on the road). Areas like the Leap were once obscure areas. Should everything stay that way? And I can't imagine the hoards overrunning Woodfords even with a nice guide book.
cheers
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City
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Wes
Have a little guide for some limestone along I80 if your interested (pequop)
Shawn
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City
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Wes
The guide I have is from the Salt lake boys about two years ago. Most of it new developement. Shoot me your email and Ill send it to ya.
burnrockburn@yahoo.com
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Thank you Ron and Tahoe Climber for agreeing that obscure climbing areas should be left obscure. I'm not giving out any of my info on the areas that I know in the Hope and Faith Valleys or Kirkwood area.
I'm sure these guys will find them. bolt what we soloed an TRed and claim them as FAs, then exploit the area.. It's pathetic!
I'm glad I live in Joshua Tree and can climb all day every day and not see another person.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Us vs. them.
Close the door after they let me in.
Get rid of all those annoying crowds and tourons so *I* can enjoy *my* solitude.
When I was growing up, someone told me "for every finger you point at someone else, there are three pointing back at you."
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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I started climbing because i heard that a woodfords canyon guidebook might be coming out, but it isn't out yet, so i think i'm going to quit.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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hey blitzo-
so you climb everyday in an area with over 4,000 documented climbs and you get all upset when an area is about to get a new updated guidebook. Seems kind of hypocritcal too me.
I personally would like to see woodfords stay obscure, but even with a guide the approaches will keep the masses away.
take care
dave
p.s. good job spraying about all the soloing and tr'ing you have done out on hwy88. who's looking for fame and recognition now?
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Of course woodfords will stay obscure, Hell, Luther Spires is in the Supertopo and full of moderate sport routes, and yet nobody is up there. Putting a climb in a guidebook isn't going to make it crowded.
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Roman
Trad climber
Bostonia
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I could care less about the book and applaud his efforts for writing one. I respect FA's as well. My issue was him getting all his buds to stir up hype via multiple threads and the fact that he seemed to be looking for a pat on the back for it all and I think that is most other people beef as well.
Oh and when he came at Russ for living in WY I just couldn't resist (even if he is a lycra clad seamstress ;)
PS FISH Products get as much respect around here as Black Diamond or Petzl even if they do come from Poofter's Froth! You should seriously look into buying some.
PPS I did hear that climbing in Poofter's Froth is greezay and pretty raunchay at best!
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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I don't know jack about the place, but the original post was pretty damn funny, and then the reaction to it pretty much clinched the impression that the O.P. was right in fact and substance as well. Just judging by the writing in this thread alone, and nothing else ('cuz I don't know anything else) this ain't a case of any publicity is good publicity. A pretty good guide for writing anything is "know your audience." Swing and a miss there, boys.
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