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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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^^^^Word. I won't repeat my story of nearly crashing in the U-Notch from downdraft.
Landing crosswind at Mammoth = Fear Factor 10.
Flying low over the Crest = Priceless.
As a former local, we long ago began referring to Mammoth as a Sacrifice Zone. Bring 'em in any which way; doesn't matter. Better to keep the sleek Newport Beachers corralled there than dispersed up every canyon on the Eastside. Check it out: during the 50s ski resort schemes sprouted up for nearly every roadhead.
If you want someone to blame, try starting with the Inyo Good Roads Club, formed by locals in 1917. They volunteered with primitive equipment and brought the travel time from LA down under two days. The Little Lake Hotel got so desperate it turned into a whorehouse.
Or try Norman Clyde, who shamelessly publicized the High Sierra, including the skiing, in magazine after magazine.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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I don't have the stats, but it seems to me that at least as many planes have gone down around Mammoth because of disregarding fundamentals such as density/altitude and fuel loads. Yes, flying is dangerous - so is driving! I for one welcome the flights, which with their undeniable environmental impact, still constitute public transportation - a good alternative to driving. Furthermore it seems clear that the few hundred people who will arrive and depart by plane will not make or break either the local economy, or the quality of life.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Steve Fosset died because he was asking for it. I've experienced the Sierra wave in a PA-28 but I wasn't 1000' AGL or less as Fosset was; it was teeth-rattling rough but of no danger. I've flown in other waves also and they are no problem if you know what you're doing and always give yourself an 'out'. The wave is no problem for a commercial flight because they also don't fly close to the ground. Encountering the wave might scare the bejeezus out of the pax but it ain't gonna bring down a Q400. That said it isn't out of the realm of possiblility that they could have probs on final if the wave takes a major dip but the two PW150A's 10,140 SHP would be plenty to pull out of any downdraft. If they suspected they could encounter such turbulence on short final their pre-final checklist would have them add 10% to their approach speed to deal with it.
That said the Rockies Wave likely played a major part in the crash of the UA 737 in Colorado Springs in the early 90's (?). The NTSB never fully agreed but as I recall it was a combination of a suspected wave encounter close to the ground and a rudder malfunction of the type which brought down the US Air 737 near Pittsburg.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Here are some great resources on Mountain Lee Waves and the danger posed to pilots and aircraft:
What is a Sierra Wave?
http://esaudubon.org/leewave.htm
'MOUNTAIN WAVE
The Aeronautical Information Manual, paragraph 574 states, “Your first experience of flying over mountainous terrain, particularly if most of your flight time has been over the flatlands of the Midwest, could be a never-to-be-forgotten nightmare if you are not aware of the potential hazards awaiting … Many pilots go all their lives without understanding what a mountain wave is. Quite a few have lost their lives because of this lack of understanding. One need not be a licensed meteorologist to understand the mountain wave phenomenon.”
Perhaps other than IFR weather, nothing affects the pilot flying in the mountains more than the mountain wave.'
http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/mountain-flying/mtn_wave.html
"The Terrain-Induced Rotor Experiment (T-REX) is a meteorological research program supported by the U. S. National Science Foundation (NSF). The program is investigating the structure and evolution of atmospheric rotors that form in the lee of the Sierra Nevada Range of California over the Owens Valley. Rotors are atmospheric circulations or eddies that form in the lee of a mountain ridge and rotate around a horizontal axis that parallels the ridgeline. These energetic circulations, which are hazardous to aircraft, form in connection with strong background flows that cross the ridgeline barrier. They are usually found in combination with mountain and lee waves."
http://www.met.utah.edu/whiteman/T_REX/
Another good resource . . .
OBSTRUCTIONS TO WIND FLOW
http://www.aviationweather.ws/045_Obstructions_To_Wind_Flow.php
All good stuff. Very interesting . . .
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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The Mountain is great, the town sucks, just like 20 years ago.
The second to last time I was in Mammoth was in 1985 (ice climbing on East Side, I've never skied Mammoth, but then, I'm a shite skier). I went there again in August 1993, same old place, "gaudy". But of course the whole East Side is a great place, so a little gaudy I can take. I sort of wish I was there now, as Ireland is having a shite summer, again.
That said, even though it is overcast (it's half six in the morning) I am typing this in my (home) office looking out the window across Dublin Bay to Howth Head and the Bailey Lighthouse, so it's not that bad.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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I should have said I've 'driven' through a couple of rotors.
That's a big difference from the wave which can be so smooth
you don't even notice it. I'm not responsible for what comes out of my mouth lately. As long as you fly perpendicular to the rotor it is not likely to do much other than terrify the pax. If you try to parallel it then it can get more 'interesting' although not unmanageable as long as you don't over-correct which is the key to any turbulence flying.
Of course, that is the weak spot of flight management (read autopilots) systems. The computer tends to use too much rudder which tends to overstress the vertical stabilizer as in the NYC Airbus crash in '02 (?). I'm willing to put money on something similar ocurring to the recent Airbus accident.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I have driven Owens Valley 395 so many times and have been buffeted from side to side by the rotor at ground level. Once it was so bad I had to slow my Toyota pick-up to about 20mph with my family on-board. I could see the rotor lifting dust as I drove North bound, and it flowing in a clockwise motion as the dust lifted near the Westside of the valley and descended toward the Eastside of the valley near the foothills of the Inyos. It would have been insane to be in the air at that moment. And guess what? There was an aircraft in the air at that time directly over 395 coming South, about 1000' over AGL. It looked like one of the Federal Express planes out of Bishop. We were just south of Lone Pine at the time. That plane was all over the place, the pilot flying seemed drunk: up, down, side to side, crabbing like mad back and forth. He was in the textbook spot where the air converges and ascends upward, but he must have been peeing his pants. I could not believe it. Wish I had video of that event.
Another time I was driving South and saw much the same thing but had my video camera with me and I could see a rotor cloud forming and dissolving over and over again. I pulled over and filmed. I have it on tape. I should sometime put together a short length video on the Sierra Wave phenomenon from the perspective of the ground. The forces at work are truly amazing and terrifying at the same time.
Very interesting stuff. I would love to soar the Sierra Wave sometime with a very experienced gliderpilot. Amazingly smooth when you get right into the sweet spot and massive altitude and lift. The X-Country miles just reel below surfing the wave. Some day. Some day.
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DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Reply to Klimmer:
"Many an aircraft have gone down in the Sierras over the years due to micrometeorology conditions of updrafts and down drafts that easily exceeed the ability of the airacraft. I repeat, mountain flying is dangerous."
Indeed! It's the reason why the Sierra is such a mecca for hang-gliding. Launches off the road that goes up to Cottonwood Meadows can take a glider to 20,000+ feet. These folks glide with oxygen and sleeping bags.
The turbo-props that Horizon Air uses can handle the conditions pretty well, and as I noted in the earlier post, they have the option to land at Bishop where there are three runways.
Private planes are another matter. My friends who have planes look at the wind speed from the ski patrol's anemometer at the top of Mammoth Mountain (http://patrol.mammothmountain.com); as a more reliable indicator of conditions crossing the crest than information available from the FAA. Right now (I just looked) the wind is 11-12 mph, but they have recorded speeds as high as 170 mph.
Among the runs off the top at Mammoth is Monument. It is just west of Scotty's, and the monument is a stone pillar dedicated to Scotty, a patroller who died there in an avalanche in (I recall) 1967. The pillar has a pair of crossed skis, some old Head Standards. The pair there now is a replacement for the originals that the wind snapped in half a few years ago, during a storm when the AVERAGE wind speed on top was above 100 mph for five hours.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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DrD,
"Indeed! It's the reason why the Sierra is such a mecca for hang-gliding. Launches off the road that goes up to Cottonwood Meadows can take a glider to 20,000+ feet. These folks glide with oxygen and sleeping bags."
Yes but we fly with reserve parachutes also and we are not flying a load of passengers.
Ok, ok, I give.
But change the name of the airlines to "Extreme Air" and stamp the passenger ticket on the way out the door with a triple black-diamond, and tell them they just survived the hardest part of their vacation, as they lay prostrate on the tarmack kissing the concrete with glee babbling after experiencing some of that gloriuos micrometeorology. Or maybe call it "Heavenly Father Airlines," or "Allah Airlines," because no one is going to be an Atheist on the flight. Everyone including the pilot will be praying. Maybe that would be a good thing.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I do not mean to bring up a sad moment, but was this 'rotor' perhaps something to do with Galen and Barbara's crash?
PS, I did not know Barbara but I did know Galen, may they rest in peace.
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10b4me
Gym climber
Happy Boulders
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Lame-Good place should NOT be easy to get to....
agreed, but as Doug says Mammoth is the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the Sierra.
Mammoth has spent the better part of the last thirty years trying to market itself to other parts of the country. problem is that the snow is way better in Utah, and Colorado.
Mammoth is(and will always) be a SoCal suburb.
I will be curious to see how many people will fly in from the PNW.
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DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 10, 2009 - 07:52am PT
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About the accident that killed Galen & Barbara Rowell, the pilot, and another passenger:
NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020819X01425&key=1
says probable cause was,
"The pilot's failure to maintain an appropriate terrain clearance altitude while maneuvering in the traffic pattern due to the sensory and visual illusions created by a lack of ground reference lights and/or terrain conspicuity, and the dark nighttime conditions."
(I recall the accident occurred about 1 a.m. Mammoth Airport has a lighted runway, which an approaching pilot can turn on via radio. I don't know about Bishop. Last winter all the commercial flights at Mammoth arrived and departed during daylight.)
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 10, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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If you look at the Horizon schedules for SoCal, it may not fit many schedules. No flight from San Diego and from LAX you either use up most of the morning or the whole afternoon the day before. You might not want to try to fly for good powder due to storm hazards. It is a pretty quick flight from LAX, and The return flight is better.
Depart LAX Arrive Mammoth Frequency
8:40 a.m. 9:50 a.m. Daily
2:40 p.m. 3:50 p.m. Daily
Depart Mammoth Arrive LAX Frequency
12:50 p.m. 1:59 p.m. Daily
5:50 p.m. 6:59 p.m. Daily
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Aug 10, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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The drive is half the reason for going. Although it would be nice to be there in two hours.
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