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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Chief,
I know about dealing with having someone injured and dying while waiting for help. There is only a small window for their survival. It is a window between life and death, between being disabled for life to having them fully recover... Timing can be everything. I feel for your experience, admire your efforts and... I am proud that you are trying to create a solution. Please keep up the good fight.
AF
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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I like to remind myself that SAR does get their job done in a quick and well-equipped fashion. Humans, in general, are fairly bad at organizing large events quickly. Only the best of the best can get a man to the moon in ten years. Most people are idiots.
So when anyone is thinking of fixing the system because it's broke, consider that it's actually working quite well and that pushing and pushing for more and more from the SAR guys, and anyone else, will just make them want to get a better job where their hard work is not criticized constantly.
Life it tough. Death sucks but it happens. There will always be times when someone else isn't there to save the guy. This was just one of those times when things worked normally instead of working well.
Dave
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Good to see this thread getting away from the accusatory. Chief got mad, but that's understandable given the circumstances. What he did was heroic for sure, but what ISAR does is also heroic. Sounds like there are some improvements needed and hopefully these will get addressed.
My friends and I got involved in a rescue a few weeks ago near Mt Carl Heller. Both the SAR folks and the CHP helo guys were professional and competent. The rescue went smoothly and a person's life was saved. My impression was that ISAR is not very well funded and the volunteers are doing the best they can with the resources they have.
Finally, condolences to all those who lost loved ones recently. It has been crazy. Be safe out there.
Tomo
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Good on you Chief. I was thinking about this whole thread, and I figured everybody here is working with very few cards, we're mostly just trying to help you deal with an awful situation.
Chief- you have a lot more cards than we have. I'm trying to fill in blanks on what would normally happen, when I have no idea what did happen.
What would a perfect or at least good SAR response on this one look like to you.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Chief, we're with you on this.
Thanks for your efforts to learn from this experience and drive improvements that can save a life.
Tomo
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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What a sad, sad thread. Starts out noting how busy the Inyo SAR team has been and quickly morphs to lawyers, congressmen, fartwads on SAR, and investigating previous incidents. I've been a volunteer for Inyo SAR for twelve years, and this thread just makes me want to cry.
Chief: Good on your effort, sorry the outcome wasn't better. I don't have any knowledge of the operation that you were involved in, so I can't shed any light on how decisions were made. Nor would I publicly; I'm just a grunt. I do know that you are making some mighty nasty insinuations that you apparently can't talk about because they are under some kind of "investigation." If you can't talk about it, then... just... don't... talk... about... it.
You have a totally unrealistic expectation for helo response time on the eastside. I've sat for hours and hours and hours in the Lone Pine airport waiting for a ship that was only 30 minutes away. The only helicopter based in the county is the USFS helo in Independence, and that's only there May - Sept. Military has been much less available since we got involved militarily in Iraq/Afghanistan. Heh, don't waste your breath on Lemoore. My understanding is that military only launches on live victims, not recoveries, though they will do recoveries if the situation develops into that. Presently, the Indy fire helo and CHP are our main resources for air support. Obviously, none of these resources are sitting around waiting for us to call, and obtaining air support is a perennial and difficult consideration in managing our operations.
Ron: I understand that it's been a trying couple of weeks, but I have to tell you, the notion of "some fartwad on SAR who never even got there" and that the this guy got "blown off by SAR" are the most offensive things I've ever read on Supertopo. You're not slagging on some anonymous supertopo poster; you're slagging on a group of volunteers that give up a lot of their time, blood, sweat, tears, and money to help other people.
Everybody else: Understand that SAR response time in the mountains is slow due to many circumstances; be prepared to take care of yourselves. Temple Crag is not Swan Slab.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Bob with all due respect to you and ALL SAR everywhere, I was aiming this at the fartwad who posted his thoughts. I have all the respect for all those that work to save lives, but as I said, I usually don't get too involved with personal battles here, but this person was TOTALLY out of line. I do apologize to all those that took offense to what I said, I am sorry. My comments were aimed only at this one individual not at a whole group. Again ,my apologies if offense was taken, but I will not retract my comments to the individual who hides behind a fake name and blasts individuals who's intentions seem on the level.
Peace
Ron
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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more yellow tape!
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The Quief
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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It seems as if my initial post is being misinterpreted, so I have deleted it.
I posted that in direct response to some things The Chief said. But now that he has deleted his posts, mine seems out of place.
His endless blabbing gets old after a while, and most of the time it's easy enough to ignore him. But I didn't want to sit back and let him badmouth the hardworking individuals of SAR. So I attempted some satire, and I guess it didn't go over too well.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Bob- thanks for the post. I don't want to cry, but I got to stand up for my freinds.
If there is one piece of info I could get out to people in the backcountry is that rescues take a long time.
We see it on Whitney all the time, very unrealistic expectations of what SAR can do for them. Say you want help because of altitude sickness. You could sit down for four/five hours while SAR attempts to bring you oxygen, or you can walk four five hours and resolve the situation yourself.
Chief's situation is different of course, and we don't know the medical condition involved. I'm starting to think CPR is worse for the guy doing it than the victim. My wife did it on a guy a while back, she had trouble with it for sure.
Anyway, there may be a valid point here about caring for the guy who was doing the compressions. I don't know what was done or not done Friday. The job got done, the question is should more have been done.
As Cragsman says, we don't know the facts. So in a sense this whole discussion is low on the utility scale. There may be a medical lesson here as well at some point.
I'm done for now.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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It was alluded to previously, but it should be very clearly stated: when the guy went pulseless, he was irretrievably gone, and there was nothing that could have helped in that setting.
With a simple heart attack with lack of pulse due to the right rythym, an AED might have rescucitated if applied in under 6 minutes (We are now talking in the under 5% range). However, this was not a simple heart attack. The underlying pathology essentially has a 100% fatality rate in the field when progressed to cardiac arrest.
The guy was gone when he went down, and all the SAR in the world there in 15 minutes could not have changed that.
But at any rate, a CPR case in the field is a dead case. If any response could have been redirected to help a situation that had ANY chance of a live victim, that was the right call to make, 100% of the time. Remember that the primary goal is to help people live, not to make people feel good.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:26am PT
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Making accusations and then deleting the posts.
Ugh.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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Many years ago, early 90's, some guy fell into the gorge between the bottom of the upper Yosemite falls and the lower falls. He was in the water for a long time, hours before sar response got to him.
A litter raising system was initiated to get him out of there and half way up he went into full cardiac arrest.
The litter attendant with him administered immediate cpr and brought him back.
After full evacuation to the clinic he walked out of there that evening. His core temperature at the Valley medical clinic when they received him was 80 degrees.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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For the record, I was aware of the call out. It was on my message machine when I got home at 6:00pm. I don't know when the call out occurred because the date and time on my answering machine are not set. There was no cancellation callout to members at home, which there often are.
Also, chief, if you can help get us bigger badder helos, that would most definitely be awesome. I think the short haul is used too frequently here. Different helos have different protocols. The Park Service can short haul a victim with an attendant, so they come sometimes. How that gets done, I don't know.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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with all due respect for your previous experience, your obvious commitment, and your recent heroic effort, I would suggest that you slow down, take a deep breath, and let things sit for a few days before you continue. One way or the other Inyo SAR is going to be a bureaucratic organization governed by rules and policies that will change slowly and with input from many sources. Your current approach as a one-man wrecking ball seems likely to be counter-productive, no matter how honorable your goals are.
An unfortunate fact about many human systems is that they are resistant to change that is externally initiated. If your goal is to create positive change, rather than to assuage your own grief and anger, you might be more likely to be successful by working through the Inyo SAR structure, even if you have doubts about the level of competence or commitment of some within that structure.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Git out the popcorn...
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Shut the fvck up, Donny.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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hey bargainhunter, if you are going to tread on sacred turf, at least fill in the details.
Walter Sobchak
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Yo Bargain,
"Do you ever think about all of the resources squandered on this sh#t? BFD. People get hurt, people die."
Great attitude - hope you're not SAR.
kev
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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I always liked the idea that rescues and choppers were not waiting and ready to come at the first request. That rescues in the backcountry were not available, so DFU. That helicopters weren't flying over our heads, and in wild places, in the High Sierra.
Providing immediate helo response when requested by SAR/non-sar sounds a little more like the loss of commitment and responsibility, and shrinks the map even more.
It sounds like priority should be a concern before choppers lift off. Triage is an important part of determining when a Helo should fly, isn't it?
Edit: Chief, I didnt see your post of 2:01 before I posted. My thoughts above are not directed at your incident.
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