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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Hey Chief if that is Cannon, let's see a picture of it in Full conditions....I could use a chubby tonight.
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NotIt
Trad climber
Malaga Cove
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Can I be the first with the stones to suggest that a LOT of accidents and near-accidents are caused by....
drumroll.......
SUPERTOPO!
If you have been to any area covered by the ST guidebooks, you have seen the type - no elaboration needed, but I will anyway.
New-looking gear, perhaps a Planet Granite belay card on the harness, general air of overconfidence only exuded by those that are trying to compensate for inexperience, looking upward from the base trying to line up the most minute feature from the ST to corroborate the start of the route. Generally one dude has the "leader" vibe and the other dude is totally f-ing clueless and it's his first or second time climbing outside (though the other one is probably in his first or second season of placing gear), socks are common, as are tape gloves - often on face climbs, they seem to love link cams, tend to have bad breath (this, admittedly, is anecdotal), the second generally takes tension to work each piece, belays are constructed exclusively with cordalettes (though usually with wanton disregard for force multiplication via obtuse angles)...
I have to stop myself.
Now, do I use SuperTopo? Absolutely. Though more and more often I use it as a reality check on which climbs are going to be murdered with long lines (there were 11 people on the first pitch or at the base of south crack two Sundays ago).
They are a valuable tool. If I wanna climb something and don't want to dick around on the approach, don't want to deal with routefinding, etc., they're definitely the correct tool to pull from the box.
The problem, however, is that this same tool, in relatively inexperienced hands, can engender a false sense of confidence. The South Lake Tahoe/Yosemite Valley Free climbing/TM guides? Great. Tough to get in over your head there. But the High Sierra guide, IMO, gets a lot of people in to situations for which they are ill-equipped.
[self realization: I feel like Roxjox right now, ranting like this]
You want to see this in action? Hike in to the Cathedral Lakes trail on a weekend and ask who is going in to to Conness. Then ask about their alpine experience. My unequivocal experience is that most will tell you that this is their first alpine climb. GREAT! Except for the fact that most parties are also lacking two key elements: either a) someone in your party for whom this is NOT their first alpine climb or b) a SOLID through-the-ranks apprenticeship at the crags and on progressively bigger stuff.
Yes, Conness is frontcountry, relatively speaking, but this is an indication of the broader problem in my opinion.
There is nothing to be done about this, so I just have to worry on these guys' behalf. That or rant here, which seems to be a popular pastime.
So to be clear, Chris MacNamara is a personal business inspiration to me - the dude is about my age and totally made a living from what he loves. I believe that he has created a fantastic product and a durable business. I have a lot of respect for both. He's not responsible for what gets done with these great guidebooks - it's just tough to go out there each week and watch the same pattern repeat itself.
edit: hooblie says what I wanted to but far more eloquently. tx.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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Hey how do I get one of those "Planet Granite" belay cards?
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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notit, I can't really argue with you on many points. We're all prone to believing what we've "learned" reductively... not sure if this exactly the right term, but I think you know what I mean: you keep doing the same thing, that "works," but really does not work when the system is pushed toward its limit.
I like Temple Crag, much as I really loved climbing on Cannon. The challenge is not gymnastic.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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> That's Cannon and it's way looser than anything we have here in the Sierra, without question.
It's loose, but I think in a different way. It has the big ratio of talus height to cliff height, which confirms the looseness. And when things come off, they can be very big. But it does not have a lot of junk stacked on ledges on popular routes.
Still, I wouldn't want to climb anything left of the Whitney-Gilman.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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"Temple Crag - too loose?"
Ummm, yeah, it's....Temple Crag.
It's not classic Sierra clean white granite- it's some other intrusive plug of shite (Minerals chime in please). It gets lots of traffic b/c it is considered part of the Palisades, it's closer than N Pal/Sill/Thunderbolt/etc, and because the routes appear like a slam dunk to the aspiring alpinist (5.6-5.8)
Like someone said earlier in this thread, 'it is what it is'.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:55am PT
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I agree with the last post. Temple Crag is not made out of the same rock as the upper Pallisades. I regret to inform you that I am a geologist with 25 years working SEDIMENTARY ROCKS! So I am no help. I did have to take Igneous Petrology in school, though.
TC is much looser than anything else up there. When you climb in the mountains, you had better get used to loose and broken stuff. TC has more than its share.
That said, as I replied on the recent accident topic, the big problem is knocking stuff off on your second, either by yarding something off or the rope dragging something off. And as I said before, when you start climbing in the mountains, you will start hiding your belays pretty damn quick. I can think of a fair number of times that this has saved my life. It is kind of routine to duck out of the firing zone.
You hear the big rocks coming off above you and you scurry around like a rat trying to find something to hide under. When you learn to deal with it and a little spicy objective danger, you will start to get it dialed. One falling rock can kill the best alpinist on earth, though. That rock doesn't care who you are if it has your name on it. It amazes me that some of the more bad-ass ST posters have made it to such a ripe old age.
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Unforgiven
Mountain climber
Dirt
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:32am PT
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What you wouldn't climb anything left of WG. Meat Grinder is left of WG and good!
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Les
Trad climber
Bahston
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:00am PT
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wow, I can't believe folks are hatin' on Temple Crag! I did Sun Ribbon back in 2005 and thought it spectacular and solid all the way. Encountered minimal loose stuff.
I love Cannon, too, and yes, while it's generally loose -- it's an "exfoliating granite" cliff -- I didn't think it bad at all on the routes I've done (Lakeview, Whitney-G, Moby Grape, Black Dike). And Chief, Whitney-Gilman is still very much intact - there was a rockfall incident to the left off and below the Pipe Pitch a few years back, but it really didn't change the route much at all. Still some loose stuff in the spot that needs to be avoided though.
Oh, and if all goes well, I'll be climbing Venusian Blind next Tuesday or so! I'll let you know what I think of that route after that!
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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I can't believe some people think they have the knowledge, experience, and wisdom to deal with choss. It's an illusion! Yes you can avoid some danger through decision making, but its really all about luck. When you get up there on the shozzle treadmill, you lose control of your fate, which you never really had anyhow. Give it up! If you chose to do those things, do it cause its fun, and accept that you will die...if not in that moment, then in another just like it. THAT is the freedom of running around in the high sierra. Safety does not exist at home in the city, on the drive to Big Pine, on the approach, and certainly not on a climb that appears to emerge out of a quarry. I personally got a kick out of "Moon Goddess". The rock is so good on a micro scale, but its like being on a giant jenga pillar. The unknown elements of insecurity were just laughable, and it was so much more pretty than sitting in my bedroom with the drapes pulled, doing the ol spin-n-click.
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bob
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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Nice Jake. I agree. Now I haven't done many sierra toutes compared to a lot of folks. Mostly T. Meadows high country, Hulk, and Temple. I did Darkstar on Temple and it was so friggen rad. Its on the top of the list as far as enjoyment of climbing, experience of its fluctuating rock quality, and damn that place is just out of this world beautiful. Jake remember heading down off the Hulk cuz I didn't want to yank a huge chunk of death on your head? Granted you were in an exposed belay spot, but man o man that woke me up. That chunk doesn't exist anymore. Wonder if that was hucked off or unintentionally pulled.......yikes!!!!
High Sierra climbing is fun.....................chossy........splitter..........and way, way dangerous. So is bouldering.
Love it all. Fun reading on this post. Thanks folk!
Bob J.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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"Can I be the first with the stones to suggest that a LOT of accidents and near-accidents are caused by....drumroll.......SUPERTOPO! "
Complaining about rookies is what rookies do. There were new climbers in the mountains long before Supertopo.
"I can't believe some people think they have the knowledge, experience, and wisdom to deal with choss."
There is a lot experience brings. I don't think luck is a huge factor. However, I'm in with the statistics. Climb crap long enough and no matter how good you think you are, you will pull off a huge chunk and who knows where it will end up.
The totally retarded thing about climbing Temple, though, is that you are smack in the middle of some of the best rock in the world.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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I would never say avoid Temple Crag...plenty of people have got up it with no drama and loved their experience. Others with some near miss rockfall but still sumitted just fine. Others not so much.
But I do think it's looser than the other alpine stuff I've done in comparison. But just something to be aware of. Not something to avoid, but be much forwarned.
As far as Ruby Cirque goes, I've wanted to try those for awhile but the grades are harder than most other high Sierra alpine routes and more prohibitive to the average climber (i.e. non 5.11). I've scoped them, drooled over them, talked to others who climbed there, but not yet climbed them. I have Dave's hand-drawn topo's, would love to do them but I'm not at that level but I think anyone who could send Positive Vibes would have a great experience on those climbs without huge rockfall risk (some since they get less traffic, but the rock quality seems stronger). Just something to be careful of since they get so much less traffic but the rock quality there seems far superior to Temple.
But hey, it's the alpine rock and anything goes. Storms, loose rock, other weirdness. Something you accept when heading up there.
Be safe and enjoy the rock folks.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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JakeW.....Jakey from the the "K"????
I been guiding here for 8 years. Had Croft pass me and my clients after doing some laps on Temple. We were finishing vensiuan, Croft had done sunribbon, moongoddess, THE Triple crown all in the same day...oh ya I think he hiked out too.
Dont believe Croft would solo anything considered "Chossy".
I think its great rock. Probably a lot of FNG's pitchen it out along the ridge with there 70'meter ropes knocking rocks off ledges and things. There is a little loosenes though NO more than any other route.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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hey Clint-really, how is the rock on slesse?
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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It would indeed be best if most folks avoided Temple Crag all together…. way to loose.
NotIt, you got it right, except you forgot to point out…. always has 4-5 spare locking biners, Aliens and BD cams down to the smallest size, but no stoppers. Oh and a bike helmet….
Good rant.
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scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Hey, The Chief...
Could you clear up one thing for me?
Do you think Temple Crag is typical for High Sierra
climbs, or is it one of the looser ones?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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JakeW...I disagree. I've been doing the experiment with the experience factor for a while now. How much sh#t do I knock off compared to my partner? Over time the gap has narrowed. At some point, we all gamble. But you can learn to make choices that improve your odds.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Seem to recall some doctor from Mammoth was killed on Moon Goddess in 1999. Fell mid way up near the 4th class section above pitch #8.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jul 29, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Temple Crag seems generally solid enough to me, and I've guided over a hundred ascents of those ridges.
Where to start? Clint, the photos you posted creep me out too. Side view of ridges that look like stacked crocery. But those huge flake-looking pieces have survived countless gigantic earthquakes. Think of the 1872 quake, about 8.2, the one that rock-and-rolled John Muir in the Valley. The one where he noticed a fresh layer of talus on top of pretty much every talus cone. It was centered a lot closer to TC, in Lone Pine, and it killed most of the folks living in town. They were in adobe shacks, though, and it was one in the morning.
And oh yeah, the huge fan of white talus in the background of those shots is NOT from TC. That's Mt. Alice, entirely different rock, always sliding so much we locally call it "Slide Mountain." Scariest thing I ever saw in the Palisades was a group going up it single file.
The ridges on Temple look a lot better from the front than the side. They're less than vert, so you learn to dance up that stuff, step lightly not yarding on things. Common sense. At least common alpine sense. Those aretes got to stand out off the face in the first place, geologically speaking, by being more sound rock.
And yeah, I worry about how people can learn that stuff too. Kind of my mission as an alpine guide is to teach by example stepping lightly. Balance up a class 2 scree pile without moving anything while others are sliding it with every step. Cathedral Peak is truly a wonderful first alpine outing, a chance to feel that you can deal with stuff looser than the Tuolumne domes below. TC is probably not so hot as a first alpine climb. Too big, just for starters. It's good to see that so many get intimidated at first glance and go back down the trail. Seems appropriate.
The average move on one of the Celestial Aretes is 5.5. The rock will be 70 degrees and very solid. Repeat a thousand times and don't forget to sidestep the obviously loose. Upper end moves tend to be 5.7 jamming on steep steps 10-15' high. Pretty fun stuff. Way classic climbing! Shorter ropes (there are plenty of ledges), protected belay spots, helmets, being alert, taking care.
I'm actually pretty conservative about loose rock, and careful. I have kids. I worry about driving. I run from lightning.
It may get me yet, but TC feels on balance an acceptable risk. And climbing it sure is a lot of fun.
If my sense of relative safety is an illusion, then it's one that has somehow survived many hundreds of thousands of feet of climbing those aretes over more than four decades.
And yes, I did say that Moon Goddess has crossed my line into unacceptable looseness, and I'm sticking to it.
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