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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Aug 23, 2005 - 09:56am PT
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Zardoz wrote:
"Oh, but his father will set up a fund for some charity or scholarship or...fill in the blank. The rationalizations people use to file lawsuits is astounding. "
Yeah, like OJ won't stop until he finds out who REALLY killed his ex-wife!
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abisharat
climber
CO
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Aug 23, 2005 - 10:07am PT
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Does anyone know why that article was in the Times? Is the lawsuit finally going to trial? It seems like old news...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 11:30am PT
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...I believe that the first court hearings are this week (if not today)...
Facts of Life:
1) rock falls
2) if you're in the fall area it's going to be a bad day
3) we choose whether or not to be in a rock fall area, no one makes us do it
4) if we are the cause of the rock fall we bear some of the responsibility for those other's below bad day
It does not take a rock scientist to look at the Apron and guess that it is an active rock fall area. In fact, Curry Company camp is built on this giant scree pile, something which always astonishes me... the trees have been there a while, but...
so going up there, as anywhere in the Valley, is an act which requires a negligant intellect to do unaware of the possible consequences. I've been climbing in the Valley long enough for some of the routes I did as a youngster to be gone, the result of the inevitable geological processes which formed the Valley.
While it may be an innocent act to go run up "Mr. Natural" as a fun crag outing, the consequence, as we all know, could be severe. They were on that particular day... all agree a tragic day indeed.
However, we would have little sympathy for some tourist trundling boulders off the rim onto the Apron if it were to happen... we might be calling for the death penalty in the event that a climber was injured or killed.... in our wonderful country the liability for these sorts of actions is established in the courts. In this case the liability of the NPS will be tested. While the consequences of a guilty finding may be a problem for the climbing community I don't see why the interested parties should not go to court if they have a reasonable case, which apparently they do.
Will it bring back a loved one? of course not. But if there was some agent which caused the rock fall beyond the natural occurence then perhaps responsibility can be assigned. We all know that the rock was going to fall... no one was up there pushing on it... it is tragic that it fell on that particular day at that particular moment.
Freaky to be up on the Apron anymore.. I don't go there very often and less and less desire every year. As my partner Gary observes, "there are lots of other climbs to do".
Be careful out there!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 23, 2005 - 11:49am PT
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I've found the rockfall off El Cap and Middle Cathedral to be just as bad or worse than the Apron (except for those once-in-five-years big slides) Rixon's/Good Book is worse. All big faces have rockfall.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 12:56pm PT
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I agree Karl, there are many known dangerous areas, Lower Brother is probably erased waitiing for climbers in the next millenium to establish new routes... I don't know anyone who goes up there with the intent of having a nice day of climbing.
...being under NA Wall and just looking at the mayhem from what falls should be just as freaky as being on the Apron... but somehow the "recent" fatalities on the Apron underline the danger... it should be general, but how odd that it locates.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 23, 2005 - 12:57pm PT
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Gawd, from the sounds of it, the Valley must be falling apart.
That said, a lot of the Alps seem to be coming down as the permafrost that glues together peaks such as the Eiger melts away.
There was a good article in the UK mag Climb a couple of issues back that looked at the consequences of global warming on the peaks around the world.
I have always wanted to do the Diamond Couloir on Mt Kenya but according to the article, the ice is more or less gone. Guess I have waited too long to get back in to climbing big time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:04pm PT
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"Gawd, from the sounds of it, the Valley must be falling apart."
I have to admit that the first [and only] time I hit the Valley I was simply astounded at the quantity and scale of the loose rocks hanging up on every wall and lip. "Falling apart" is exactly how it looked (looks) to me. Just looking up at the Texas and Boot flakes made me wonder if all you folks weren't absolute lunatics as from the ground they look to be coming off at any random moment. It all felt about the same as Cannon as only on a astonishingly grander scale.
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:12pm PT
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That may be true, healyje, but you can almost set your watch by Cannon rockfall. The fact that the Old Man held together as long as it did still befuddles me.
It still won't keep me from climbing at either place, though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:13pm PT
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It isn't any different then it's been since the last period of glaciation (Minerals should add real content here)... the climbers have cleaned off some of the loose rock on some of the cliffs, but there is still a lot out there.
The problem is that wandering around in Yosemite Valley might give you the impression that it is all very civilized, which would be dangerous if it causes you to let your guard down when you make the transition to the vertical wilderness which is only a couple of hundred yards away.
It's not that there is an increase in the rock fall, just that there is an increased awareness of the rock fall. Fatalities will do that...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:33pm PT
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Good point Ed about the awareness issue. I have seen some pretty scary rockfalls in the Valley. Sometimes it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, though also having a bit of knowledge of an area, especially one prone to rockfall, can help - somewhat - in not being in the wrong place.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:40pm PT
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Over the past few years as I have read the reports of rock fall, I have wondered if it was somehow different in the 1970s. I just don't remember rock fall being an issue. I don't remember staying off anything because of rock fall.
On the other hand I was in the Valley full time for only about 8 years, which is not very long to measure the rate of falling rocks.
So, is it the same now as it was 30 years ago?
Roger
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Aug 23, 2005 - 02:43pm PT
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GPA sure seemed to be a lot less "active" 10, 20 or even 30 years ago (although there always has been a huge talus fan on the right (W.) side). Has GPA rockfall gone through cycles over a hundred or two hundred years? Does anyone out there know for sure? I can remember being caught in a huge rock fall at the base of "Lean Years" in 1979 and coming real close to biting it. That's very near where that kid got it, wasn't it? Seemed like the whole sky was falling for a 1/4 mile in either direction. Sounds like all this massive stuff did start over there with the septic tanks, though. One nice side effect of this suit might be that it gets the NPS to re-route their sewage lines (if they are indeed contributing to the problem). Minor miracle if they ever do anything.
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Tom Bruskotter
Trad climber
Seattle
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
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The NPS was trundling.
Anybody look at the slide show that bspisak posted?
Holy crap? Look at slide #15 - No wonder the father is suing.
They weren't pushing with their hands, they were pushing with 5000 gallons of water per day. As a climber, I'm pissed off that the NPS would direct high quantities of subsurface water towards a jointed cliff face above an established recreation area.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:22pm PT
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There is mention in the '71 Roper guide about rock fall damaging routes... I think there were a lot fewer "targets" in the Valley in the 60's and the 70's.
My Dad used to remind me all the time that climbing is risky and it's better not to put yourself in a position of being hurt or killed.
He was right, and I knew it, and I went climbing anyway.
I don't have any idea if the NPS is responsible in any way, but in the course of the lawsuit I suppose we'll learn something about that. I know if I were the dad I wouldn't sue... as horrible a tragedy as lossing a child... because my Dad was right, and because I would climb anyway.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
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Dingus - you'd be right at home in Eldo! Damn near every route longer than one pitch goes through at least one bands of rotten rock.
If you don't like a hold, just pull it out - reset it in a better position - then pull on it.
But the good stuff is really good!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
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I hope I get on the jury! In no way could a toilet start the rockfall in question. No Way.
Juan
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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I have to say that if I was on a jury and I saw Watts's slide presentation, I'd be convinced that there was a good chance that the rockfalls were caused by the septic water leach fields and probably cast my vote for the plaintiff.
That said, I am not a geologist and as a lay person a geologist with conflicting evidence and a good rebuttal might sway me for the defendant. Tough one to call.
Roger, I concur. I don't remember a lot of rockfalls in the 1970s - some though.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Aug 23, 2005 - 03:51pm PT
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She wrote: "If the NPS shells out 10M on this case, you don't seriously think they are going to let folks go climbing up on El Cap again."
I don't honestly think that the Park Service can prohibit climbing on El Cap. They can try, and hold things up for a while, and get the whole thing entangled with lawyers, shameless fees, and the glacial-paced legal system with all it's silly, superfluous folderol, but there's basically no way and no legal basis for shutting down public property. As with all outdoor adventure activities, you can never achieve absolute safety, or anything even close. You an try, but we'd end up with a police state where folks would not be allowed to leave their own homes for fear of injury and lawsuits and law shenanagans--something that scuttled ancient Rome, and has remained a thorn in the sides of civilized societies ever since.
JL
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Aug 23, 2005 - 04:16pm PT
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How would everyone feel if the facts were a little different? Does your opinion change if the scenario is as follows.
Tourist staying in Curry Village goes for a stroll in the woods (not a climber on the Apron)
Leach field installed by NPS adds tens of thousands of gallons of water to an area known to be at risk for mast wasting.
Massive rock fall Kills tourist.
Reputable geologist concludes that leach field was improperly located and accelerated/caused the rock fall that may not have occurred for hundreds if not thousands of years under natural conditions.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 04:23pm PT
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So did the leaking tank increased the flow of water .01 percent or .1 percent?
Juan
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