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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 27, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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I have a Canon SD880. The screen is bright enough to use in sunlight, so a viewfinder is no longer the requirement it used to be. The controls on the SD880 are really well-placed and are bigger than many of the other point-and-shoots; the camera can be used and adjusted one-handed (but make sure the wrist strap is on, it is so small that it is easy to drop). The lens has a good wide-angle setting that is useful in the close quarters of climbing shots, and the price is moderate (a consideration for a device that is likely to be abused).
For photographing while belaying, I find the screen to be more awkward than a viewfinder, because you have to hold the camera away from your face rather than up against it. I've only had the opportunity to use the camera on day outings, and the battery has always been up to the task of the kind of intermittent photography that is typical of climbing days. The battery is small and light and it would be easy to carry several batteries for more extended outings. My older Canon point and shoot ran on AA batteries and feels twice as heavy as the SD880 because of them.
Controls on the SD880 are pretty much limited to choices about ISO and exposure compensation, which is not too much of a problem for a belay camera. Folks who want more control (and are willing to double the price) would certainly want the G10, which is bigger and bulkier but seems to handle very well. It is also possible to install CHDK on the data card and obtain all kinds of control capabilities typically found only on DSLR's. (I haven't done this, at least not yet, but I have a DSLR that I use for everything except carrying on climbs).
The weak point of the SD880, the G10, and many other point and shoots is the retractable lens. It is delicate and is easily jammed by dirt, sand, or other types of grit. Repairs run from around $75 if it can be disassembled and cleaned to twice that if the entire assembly has to be replaced, and of course in the meantime you can't take any photos. Two important cautions are to make sure that the camera case is free of any grit and to beware of situations that might turn the camera on in the case and make the lens try to extend inside the case. On my older Canon, the unwanted lens extension could be prevented by leaving the camera set in the "view pictures" mode, but this option is not available on the SD880. However, the on-off button is small, recessed, and pretty well shielded by the shutter release button immediately next to it, so I think unwanted activation would be an extremely rare occurrence.
The Olympus Stylus cameras and I think those of some other manufacturers have a fixed lens that is not subject to this problem. However, I've heard that other features of these cameras are inferior to Canon's.
By the way, if you are converting from film and were not one of the small minority that processed color film yourself, you probably won't realize that photo processing software is, I think, almost essential for good digital results. You don't have to spring for Photoshop at several times the price of your point and shoot, Photoshop Elements is an extremely capable alternative for far less dough.
Edit: The following Ken Rockwell review, cited by Mal Daly in the other thread on cameras, makes a strong case for the SD880 over the G10.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 27, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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they need to improve the cell phone camera so we can have a gps, camera, and phone, all in one easy to drop package.
hey, anybody have the garmin rhino?
radio plus gps?
watch out for the magellan t 300 on sale this weekend at rei for half price, it is a real nightmare from what i read on the web.
reg 149 sale 89, but don't do it!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 27, 2009 - 11:54am PT
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The G10 is awesome, but it is quite bulky to stick in your pocket. With the Powershot SD1100, you can whip it out half way up some wild chimney or jamcrack and get the cool shots that you would never take it you had to dig in your backpack or haulbag. Size matters.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Thanks, guys you've given me a lot to work with.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Jun 27, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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recommendation: before buying, try them out and in particular try to turn them on and take a picture with one hand.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 28, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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that gray plastic is like teflon, maybe a coat of pine tar?
i mean, when they hit, they hit hard.
you can hear parts rattle.
parts is parts, but not on my sandwich.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 28, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Jaybro... any progress with this? I'm basically looking for the same thing you are. When you make a decision let me know - I'll get the same thing :-).
The G10 looks great. My price point is $200ish.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 28, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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I'm really happy with the Cannon G10
sort of a cross between a pocket camera and DSLR.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 28, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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i see some noise issues with the big ccd, not an issue if you are outdoors...
"Some people think, "Oh, sensor noise at high ISO. Thats nothing big." It's actually everything; these cameras are unusable in anything other than a brightly-lit environment. If manufacturers would put smaller but more sensitive sensors, they'd deliver great pictures. Unfortunately, all most people care about is the completely misleading megapixel measurement.
A Nikon D40 at the same price will mop the floor with this camera. If you're this close to a DSLR, you should go DSLR, not prosumer..."
"I have always had Canon cameras (since Digital cameras came). However the thing which bothers me more than anything else is the mentioned noise. As soon as the environment becomes slightly dark (and you are forced to go to higher ISOs) photos become useless.
The only reason I might buy an Olympus (or something else) this time is because of the high noise.
The next bothering thing is the Lense movement mechanism which stops functioning (locks) sometimes and your forced to push it manually."
(don't push on the lens, you strip the pinion gear, try a rebbot with fresh batteries first)
"i'm a long time Canon user, but the G10 was the last straw. I just ordered the Panasonic LX-3 and am throwing my G9 on ebay. The noise problem is a killer and I have no idea how the Photography Blog can give such a high rating to a camera that takes bad photos starting at 400 ISO. I thought image quality was supposed to be the most important thing about a camera. Guess I was wrong."
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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Im looking at the Nikon D40 or 60. Anyone have any experience with those? I want something that could do professional grade pics but wont HAVE to in order to make it worth buying.
My concern is the lens, as most combos come with 18-55mm and a 55-200mm and I would like to get something that can reasonably be an all purpose lens for entry level stuff.
Is that 18-55 plus a wide angle adapter good to start?
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couchmaster
climber
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Canon makes good cameras, as those recommending the SD880 know. However, you can get the Panasonic, with a 12X zoom, both are 10 mp cameras, at less than a 2oz weight increase (7.2oz for the Panasonic) The G10 weighs 12.3 ounces and although it has 14mp, is only a 5x zoom.
With the current $50 coupon included, Costco has the Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS3 10MP Digital Camera with 12x Wide Angle MEGA Optical Image Stabilized Zoom and 3 inch LCD (Black) for a very sweet $225.00
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMC-ZS3-Digital-Stabilized-Black/dp/tech-data/B001QFZMCO/ref=de_a_smtd
Stats on Amazon
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spot
Boulder climber
Atascadero,Ca
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I have a Canon G10 - takes amazing pictures with lots of bells and whistles.
Some of the cons (very few)
Viewfinder is almost useless- shows about 80% of what you are going to capture
Power hungry - Takes a couple hundred shots and then the battery dramatically drops off.
Spare batteries are expensive! Canon brand battery is about 70 bucks - off brand is about 50 bucks.
Not very good in low light situations, or indoors (hand held) without an external flash unit
other than that it is A+++ if you don't mind the price tag. I use this camera about 80% of the time and use my Rebel xt the rest of the time for low light and when I want the "feel" of a real lens (manual zoom,etc)
Read the Ken Rockwell review for a pretty honest evaluation.
My daughter has an older A540 that takes AA batteries and it is a decent shooter, and was cheap. I find that the AA batteries are a bonus when you are on road trip with no way to charge the specialized batteries or you screw up and need power now!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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It's not the camera that makes the photo!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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blitzo - that's true. but the photographer has no control over how the electronics eventually render the image in front of you.
the G10 is too big for what I want. I want something small. I don't need bells and whistles. Heck, the Kodak I have has taken many awesome shots.
I'm not a pro....
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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G-10 hands down.
For one, nobody who climbs for real is gonna carry a camera in their pocket (not if you want your camera to last).
I carried my G10 up White Punks in a very sleek PADDED camera bag. I swapped leads with my buddy and neither of us complained having it added to the rack.
It shoots in RAW and it's 14.7 MP!
If you want to shoot wide and crop later, there you go. You can't do that with a smaller MP camera (not if you want to print stuff in magazines).
So yes, if you are not a pro you won't care 'cause you're just going to post online at 72dpi, but if you're serious about your pics and want to do something with them (now or in the future! - i'm using shots I took 10 years ago and using them in publications... thank god I shot slides!), use the G10.
Buy two batteries and use them in rotation. No big deal.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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This thread has been mostly about equipment... really you have to get something that you can use, while climbing, that allows you to make the images you want to make.
First and foremost is figuring out what those images are... then getting the equipment that allows you to make them.
A photog friend of mine creates incredible images from a "give-away" digital camera she received in some sales promotion. It's because she has an idea of composition, color and tone... for a few thousand pixels you don't expect to be able to blow the pictures up into posters... but they are artistic, you can recognize that.
A climbing camera has to have enough useful features automatic to allow you to quickly and reliably get the shot you visualize. If it requires a lot of futzing around then it just isn't going to be useful.
You have to have it available to use, and rugged enough to be part of your climbing gear.
It has to have reproducible characteristics.
Also, dependable...
But in the end, it is just a piece of equipment. The images that are made have qualities independent of the actual picture produced. The Mark Chapman images of the FA of Sentinel Falls would not excite a magazine photoeditor... probably... but are wonderful images of a moment of climbing history. Lost until posted on STForum (though the account is now stale and the images not available see this post).
So get something that fits you most important criteria (probably budget) and learn to use it, this means shot a lot with intention. And then you'll know what to look for in a camera next time... it's an evolving process.
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
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IMHO: For most climbing I like a camera that is cheap, uses AA batteries and is small. I also have a DSLR and a massive tripod for better shots but light and cheap is better for actual climbing. Lately I've been using a Nikon Coolpix P60 which can be had for less than $200 and has a manual setting. Rather than spend for an expensive camera, learn how to take pictures and how to fix them up once you've got them. Tone mapping can reduce global contrast. Layer overlays can make dull photos pop. Unsharp mask will add defintion.
I use GIMP which is a free, open source alternative to Photoshop.
Original
Fixed up
Edit, 7-9-09
The cheap Nikon P60 I mentioned above doesn't have an optical viewfinder but has an electronic viewfinder which I like when out in the sun and the display is invisible. It is the camera I carry on bike rides and climbing.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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I pretty much took the above advice and got a camera today.
I went with the Kodak CoolPix S560 for $169. Extra batteries are $15 on Ebay for Kodak batteries. or for $10 you can get two no-name batteries. Not sure which route I'll go there.
The advice of get one that you can operate with one hand was the deciding factor (as well as price).
If I drop this camera I'll be sad. If I dropped a G10 I'd probably want to kill myself.
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