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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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In Camp 4, maybe early spring 1963, Roper pointed to a distinguished looking man with an attractive younger woman. "That's J. Robert Oppenheimer and his mistress".
"Everybody who is anybody eventually shows up in Camp 4".
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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"It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility; it is style which makes it possible to act effectively, but not absolutely; it is style which enables us to find harmony between the pursuit of ends essential to us, and the regard for the views, the sensibilities, the aspirations of others; it is style which is the deference that action pays to uncertainty; it is above all style through which power defers to reason."
What's that mean in street language?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 18, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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There is a story about JRO having dinner with General Groves. Groves says "You know why we are building this bomb?"
JRO "Because of the German threat"
Groves "No, to keep the Soviets in line after the war is finished"
I have read that many of the project scientists were shocked when the military actually used the bomb.
Someone once said "Oppenheimer's physics is brilliant but his math is always wrong"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 11:11am PT
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Werner- To tighten the scope of discussion down to climbing, what does style mean to you? We all use the term but its meaning is delightfully layered and elusive.
Eric- Wonderful Camp 4 connection!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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the last sentence/paragraph of the article Greg posted a link to is a fantastic prophecy:
"It is in our hands to see that the hope of the future is not lost because we were too sure that we knew the answers, too sure that there was no hope."
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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What does style mean to me?
I have no clue, Steve.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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the paragraph before the quote of Steve's is an important lead in to it's meaning:
"The problem of doing justice to the implicit, the imponderable, and the unknown is of course not unique to politics. It is always with us in science, it is with us in the most trivial of personal affairs, and it is one of the great problems of writing and of all forms of art. The means by which it is solved is sometimes called style."
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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Hahahaha H Bomb reasoning "sound"
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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This subject is far too deep for my limited powers, nonetheless......
Style has nothing to do with what we do.
It has everything to do with what we do not do.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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Hi Steve,
Lots of good ideas from posters.
A quote like the full Oppenheimer one you like is fine for a calendar, where readers have a month to mull it over (or ignore it!), and just the concept of a quotation from someone like Oppenheimer is startling, but for a start of a first chapter you really want something that will get people's attention and interest, and keep them reading.
Myself, I read the whole quote and kinda stumbled, and had to reread the thing two or three times to understand it. Not a good start to a book.
If you really want to to use it (and I have the same reservations about Oppenheimer as others here), better might be to shorten it:
"(I)t is above all style through which power defers to reason."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Steve, I don't know what your style is... as an author... I like the quote but it doesn't lend itself to the goal of such a thing, which is to capture the reader and make them want to understand it in the context of the subject.
To that end, perhaps paraphrasing Oppenheimer's introductory in the proceeding paragraph:
"The problem of doing justice to the implicit, the imponderable, and the unknown ... is one of the great problems ... the means by which it is solved is sometimes called style."
and then go on in the Introduction to your quote....
I think this introduces the parallel, Oppenheimer goes on to talk about "style" in national and international relations, but in that one paraphrased excerpt, he introduces the concept of style to everything we do: "science, it is with us in the most trivial of personal affairs, and it is one of the great problems of writing and of all forms of art."
You are free in the Intro to expand on that idea and explain why it is relevant to Frost and the style which he exemplified in climbing.
Just a thought...
...writing by committee is often a horrendous enterprise which fails to satisfy the hope that something good will result.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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We are now all sons of bitches.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Fattrad, you found Teller reasonable?
You're aware he was pretty much the model for Dr. Strangelove?
That he advocated using nukes for mass excavation of construction sites?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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Juan's quoting from the Manhattan project scientists...
reportedly from Brainbridge to Feynman upon the success of the Trinity test
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Ed- Believe me, I don't care to write by committee! I brokered this thread in search of context and have received that and more. My presence on the ST is thoroughly intentional and respectful of the wealth of experience and wisdom among all who care to jump into any discussion. I like hot topics and spicy food for thought and JRO clearly satisfies...
Jstan- You have humbly hit the nail again squarely. I believe that one doesn't truly grasp or understand any power until one is prepared to relinquish it. The wherefore and the why in each of us is the central enigma that fascinates me. I can't be Paul Preuss but I carry him with me in spirit always.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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History has not been kind to Edward Teller, who appears to have been an exceptionally nasty person in addition to his other qualities.
So far as the model for Strangelove, the debate contintes:
http://www.slate.com/id/1002029/
Kissenger was known, at the time, for being one of the very, very few folks in foreign policy debates advocating for the tactical use of nuclear weapons in "grey area" conflicts like, say, Vietnam or Korea.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Edward Teller was a brilliant intellect, a giant of physics in the pre-war period, and a major force in physics just post-war.
He retained his sharp mind into his 90's, though obviously not the same as when he was young. He was a member of a group of Hungarian physicists and mathematicians who escaped to the west... von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, Teller... all considered to be of such exceptional scientific talent to be referred to as "from outer space"
They were personally influenced by their experiences with totalitarian regimes in Europe and very suspicious of Soviet intentions, having lived the consequences. This experience obviously informed their advice to the government of their adopted country, the United States.
Their individual styles varied greatly, and they are remembered mostly for their science, except for Teller, perhaps, who is remembered for his advocacy of the development of thermonuclear weapons, and the politicking for that which included his testimony about Oppenheimer, clearly based on innuendo.
History will judge, long past our time, just how the cold war came out. Who was right and who was wrong. But it is still too soon to attribute good and evil.
The affairs of man are complex, I long ago divorced the concept of "brilliant scientist" from "good person," all of the spectrum of human foible are spread across the scientists I've known...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Oppenheimer said during the Manhattan project "God help us from enemies without and Hungarians within"
This was when Teller was pushing for the H bomb at a time when they hadn't completed the A bomb.
How did so many smart guys come out of Hungary during the pre war period?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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"I long ago divorced the concept of 'brilliant scientist' from 'good person[.]'"
I presume you've already added "good climber," "author," etc.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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Werner may not know what style is, but I think he has it.
"It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility; it is style which makes it possible to act effectively, but not absolutely; it is style which enables us to find harmony between the pursuit of ends essential to us, and the regard for the views, the sensibilities, the aspirations of others; it is style which is the deference that action pays to uncertainty; it is above all style through which power defers to reason."
I like the quote a lot, but it may be over the top for a climbing book.
I liked this one too
"a perfection of means, and a confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem" (Einstein)
and this
"Everybody who is anybody eventually shows up in Camp 4". (who said that??)
I read the American Prometheus bio a few years ago. To my surprise I came away liking the guy. Making the bomb and using it are two different things in my mind.
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