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junknira
Trad climber
oakland
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:46am PT
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IMHO...tourists should not be allowed up there..this isn't the first death and i don't care how many thousands have visited. Go to Glacier if you want the view, or hike down clouds rest.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 10:02am PT
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When somebody mentioned a Half Dome fall this weekend, I thought they were referring to this 6 June 2009 injury accident:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,13213
On the afternoon of Saturday, June 6th, Gina Bartiromo, 35, slipped while descending the Half Dome cables and slid approximately 150 feet down the east face, coming to rest on a small ledge...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 15, 2009 - 10:10am PT
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No one should be allowed on those walls on El Capitan either, if you want the view you can do an easy hike to the top.
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k trout
Social climber
Golden, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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IMHO Half Dome would be the coolest summit in town if the cables were gone.
But the cables are important for good public relations. When people have the time of their lives in National Parks they vote to support them. The "free" press is still mostly angry old guys out to privatize our parks, so good PR is more important.
Education could prevent the accidents. Most folk use the cables wrong, hanging on to both cable and facing downhill as they descend. If a foot slips, both wrists will release. Assigning one cable for up and the other for down would probably help. Facing up, with both hands on only one cable, is much safer. Less chance of a "judo" wrist release.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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If I recall, there is a warning sign at the base of the cables that says you shouldn't go up if the weather is bad...
...of course, having just hiked all the way to get there, the definition of "bad weather" might be a bit flexible in a hikers mind.
But not to be too judgmental, it seems that the exact same thing happens to climbers with exactly the same consequences. Summit fever is not a disease that is restricted to the inexperienced.
They shouldn't have been up there, it is true. But we can certainly recall times when we shouldn't have been someplace we were...
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 15, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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1/2 a person left to get whacked this year if it's average of 2 1/2 is to be kept constant.
1 over yosemite falls, and 1 off the dome.
glacier was last year with the tourist chasing his camera off the edge.
so if i come to the park and get all busted up, that would be the last 1/2, and you can all climb the rest of the year with insurance.
ok then, off to the salt mines.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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I can't imagine the NPS would ever add cables in this day and age, but I can understand the political difficulties in removing them. And if you did, then what. Would there be dozens of fixed lines as guides tried to shuffle loads of tourists up where the cables used to be?
Yea, that rock has gotten slick from the traffic. The first time I came down (after snake dike), I came down outside of the cables grabbing just one cable with one hand. The rock wasn't as slick and less chance some 200 pounder would take me out also when he slipped.
I can't see blasting the rock going over very well. It would just get slick again pretty quick. Has the NPS ever considered adding metal stairs?
I suppose the NPS is reluctant to make any changes because it would open them up to even more charges/complaints. But at the least, it would seem that adding a third cable so you had one path dedicated to going up and one to going down, would help a lot.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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Over a million people to the top, and only two deaths in the last thirty years and people are ready to close the cables?
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Dapper Dan
climber
Menlo Park
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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It has been raining almost daily since i got here in Yos. on wednesday.
I saw the rescue crew in the ahwahnee meadow saturday, they didn't look too much in a hurry to save anyone.
that is never a good sign.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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As Ed points out, there's signage that says not to go up the cables if the weather is bad. I don't recall the exact verbiage, but I think it is centered on the idea of keeping visitors from getting struck by lightning.
I rather wonder if there should be better signage about how to climb the cables and why it matters. As in, perhaps, "Climbing the cables is dangerous but if you keep your wits about you and proceed carefully you'll almost certainly survive the experience."
Of course, there's only so much that you can do with signage, and there is only so much that the NPS should be trying to do. But I suspect that within that solution space is room for a little bit more information than they currently offer.
Maybe along the lines of the signs they have above every waterfall in the park:
BE CAREFUL!
Climbing the Half Dome cables is
dangerous. If you fall from the
cables you will be seriously
injured and possibly die.
And maybe followed by three or five bullet points like, hang on, wear gloves, don't climb if you have heart problems or debilitating fear of heights, stuff like that.
Another thought is that maybe instead of referring to them as "cables," maybe they should refer to them as "the cable route" as in climbing route. But of course, that gets into the issue of maintenance. The NPS takes a total hands-off approach to climbing anchors and protection, and there really isn't a strong logical reason why half dome is or should be any different.
Personally, I'd like to see the cables stay available. Yes, it has become rather a zoo, and yes, the experience is somewhat diminished by the crowding of recent years. But I think that the experience of making strenuous effort and taking risk, then reaping the rewards of perspective and grandeur is transformative. It would be nice if that experience remained available to the general public in the way Half Dome offers.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Not that the Devil ever lacks advocates, but ...
One fatality among 50,000 or so ascents per year does not sound like a high rate, compared with our own game. The protect-people-from-risk argument could be turned against climbers pretty easily, by that huge majority of people who won't get the points we're making about Half Dome's cables.
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LowNRight
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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It might be that thousands of people walk that trail per day. It might be that it’s sunny at the trailhead. It might be just YNP but you’re headed out to the wild. YOU should understand that there are inherent risks. It is on YOU to take care of YOUSELF. It’s funny that when a tragedy like this happens everybody is quick to try to find fault with who allowed this. My condolences to his family and friends but the fault for this one lies squarely on the person that fell.
I see some “they shouldn’t let them” and “access should be not allowed”. Don’t be so quick to spout that thought. You guys know it’s the same crap that’s said about climbing when an accident happens. These thoughts are in the same vein of thoughts that causes access issues for people that climb.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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Well, this would be 2 fatalities on the cables, in a year's time. It's going to start getting notice if it keeps up. And I can't help but think that it's going to cause problems for us, since the media likes to lump them in with climbers.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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And I can't help but think that it's going to cause problems for us, since the media likes to lump them in with climbers.
Yes, I think that's a risk. To most people, climbing up Half Dome's sheer sides sounds much stupider and more dangerous than the cables. And when climbing accidents occur, they sometimes get a lot more press.
Removing the cables on Longs Peak seemed like a good move, but in that case there remained an easier way for nonclimbers to hike up. Wouldn't YNP face a political backlash, if they removed such a popular feature?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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LNR and Nef have pointed to how important the public's perceptions can be. ( We all have perceptions so on a personal basis we know how important they are.)
Climbers oftimes get enjoyment out of the feeling of freedom we sometimes get. It is OK to go be wild and free. Just don't make a media production number out of it. Don't make the rest of us pay for your ringy dingies.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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If our slackline adventures had made it into the mainstream media can you guess what headquarters would be telling Yosemite right now?
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LowNRight
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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We’re discussing something that has pretty much always been there since the dawn of the park. Don’t kid yourself, the discussion is about denying access. Very much the same way that you would deny access to climbers so they don’t injure themselves because YNP isn’t a top rope at a climbing gym (a climber’s Disney if you will). I’m just saying don’t be so quick to hop up on your high horse and start with the restriction for the “plebeians” crap. Please excuse the pun, but that is a slippery slope to be riding a high horse upon.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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The cable route was the first route up Half Dome, it's historical and enjoyed by thousands. I doubt it would go away, if so it would be a shame.
There are many more deaths from more mundane causes in Yosemite, see below.
People probably went up when the weather was decent, then the clouds moved in. It happens all the time.
I think signage about which side is up and down is a good idea.
Another thing that could help is to double the number of wooden steps. Buy that would require double the number of holes. It's about 4-8 feet between steps with slick rock between, that's enough space to build up speed. If every step was on a wooden board it would be safer. But there could still be accidents, not sure it would be worth it.
http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-yosemitepitfalls24jun24
THE HAZARDS
During the last three years, the park has been averaging one death per month. In "Death in Yosemite," authors Michael P. Ghiglieri and Charles R. "Butch" Farabee Jr. analyze more than 1,500 deaths in the park since the mid-19th century, including 79 since 1999. Among them are 144 drownings, 122 deaths in hiking and scrambling incidents, 104 deaths in rock-climbing efforts and 159 in motor-vehicle accidents.
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Scraptee
Trad climber
Sacto
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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We climbed Snake Dike last week. Hit the summit at noon as the clouds were building and made a bee line down the cables as people were still coming up as the dark clouds gathered. The first peels of thunder hit just as we got off the cables and, without meaning to be too judgemental, people of questionable intelligence were still headed up. There were 41 people sitting up there that had to be evacuated. They were probably fortunate that lightning wasn't part of the storm, but what the hell were they thinking? Signs on the trail warn them but they still headed up. With all the signage people still wade in the pools above next to the sign that says if you slip and go over the falls you will die...
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