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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 06:27pm PT
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ShortTimer:
Carpe diem.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Evolution, natural selection (better called survival of the fittest), and other similar theories, all attributed to Darwin and his research, threaten common religious beliefs. People don't like to be told they are wrong. Even if they are wrong.
People thought the Earth was flat then someone said it was round. The flat Earth people thought this was nuts regardless of any scientific evidence. They beieved in it and that made it true to them. Fine. But they were wrong and no matter how hard they wanted it to be true, it was not. But it didn't threaten their importance in the universe too much.
Some thought that the Sun, at al, revolved around the Earth. This was important because they wanted to feel important. Others presented evidence that showed it was not true but they wanted it to be true so that they would be important. They wanted humans to be "special." Fine. But it's not true. They believed it and stuck with it till the bitter end but it's not true. But there was still a way to feel that humans are the center of the universe.
Evolution and the common ancestor theory, as well as the other scientific aspects of evolution, are in the same boat as those two scientific theories above except for only two differences; one is that it more directly threatens the power of the church and religion and God in general, and two, it is happening now instead of having happened way back in the past. There is so far, no other difference. It appears different to us because we are here now but it will not appear different to the people five hundred or one thousand years from now. They will laugh at us on their way to church.
God as we know of it/him/her today, if examined without bias, will appear the same as any other God or Gods thoughout history. There is no difference except for one; it/he/she is the hot topic here and now. We (my mom and dad and all of the rest who go to churches and temples) believe in todays God and not in yesterdays God(s). This never changes.
So there is a correlation that we can see; Things that happened in the past where people believed anything that is not commonly believed today appear silly. Those who believed in the flat Earth must have been nuts. Why would anyone dispute the evidence that scientists had thousands of years ago when it was so compelling? Why did that come up with lame reasons for the science to be flawed?
So why aren't the current billions of catholics considered nuts too? Why are they now right when all other religions and beliefs now and before are deemed stupid and wrong? (this is true for whichever religion you want to pick but I chose the one of my upbringing).
Why did the Pope once admit that there is some amount of evolution going on? It's because this is a natural war that has been fought for thousands of years and still rages. The war between those that allow that they may be insignificant and those that cannot accept that they might be insignificant. SCientists will not be swayed by religious beliefs and worshippers will not be swayed with scientific evidence.
My cat thinks I'm God. Am I his God? I may very well be.
There is no point in arguing about it on the internet because it will take far too long for this to be resolved. It will take more than my kids kids lifetimes. But eventually, there will be balance and the religions, whatever they may be at the time, will accept the science while fitting it into a viewpoint that humans are more important than chimps and that Earth is in the center of the universe. Even if it is not.
I am almost an athiest but as a scientists, I do not disbelieve in anything. I cannot because it is wrong. I have no way of knowing and accept that there may be one or more supereme beings controlling all that I know. But I will not ever think that just because something appears magical or impossible, that it cannot be explained as a natural physical proterty of the universe. I will certainly not ever believe that a few books written by men, who might have been in a mental institution making it all up, can show me the path to enlightenment. Especially when there are too many to choose from. It it were God taking care of things, there would be one message and one book. The separate religions doom themselves by being separate.
Dave
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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God is such a Control Freak.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 06:45pm PT
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Dave, I wouldn't agree that it is better called "survival of the fittest". Maybe call it "survival of the (for the time being) fit enough".
How well adapted something is to its current environment is a relative thing. A half-ass adaptation is good enough if there is no selective pressure. And you can go from being well adapted to suddenly facing extinction if the local environment changes enough. Pity the poor dodo bird when dogs suddenly showed up on their island.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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But the Blablablob isn't a Control Freak. It just makes you sad.
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Sally OConnor
Social climber
Canada
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Fingerlocks,
I can understand your concern about science in the schools. Up here I don't think we have the same thing going on at all, at least not yet. I am not up on American politics but it is my impression that GB et al have an agenda that sets your curriculums apart from ours.
I would hope that if I had children, they would be taught science in the way I was taught science. That might be a simplistic way of putting it, but I think you know what I mean. I am a believer but Religion is not science and I don't think it belongs in the science classroom. I am not sure whether religion should even be taught in schools though it might not hurt if it were presented as not the be all and end all but something for them to consider and adopt if they felt like it.
As for physical or emotional pain being inflicted for "good reasons", what I mean is that to me, God is above all things, a loving God. He has his reasons for the things I go through and just like a (truly) loving parent, he does things to or for me that I might not agree with. I welcome all pain and joy because I choose to believe that they spring form love.
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Sally OConnor
Social climber
Canada
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"My cat thinks I'm God. Am I his God? I may very well be."
To, rectorsquid, you are wrong. All cats feel they are the center of the universe.
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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I was just talking to Babablob. It told me that it created the earth as a big joke and the jokes on me. It just hasn't reached the punch line yet. It told me to write all this down in Farsi, have it translated consecutivly into Urdu, then French, then Middle English and publish the word of Babablob, so everyone would know the literal truth. You're right, it is kinda pinkish with lavender polka dots. And shaped like a giant pig.
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WBraun
climber
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There is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of religion.
He is also equally under the delusion that there is no real dividing line between the material and the spiritual, "he is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself".
This includes all the lexicographic interpreters.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
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Occam's razor: a difference must make a difference
Yes, this is certainly part of the scientific attitude. But my point is a little broader. The people who developed modern science over the last several hundred years were mostly Europeans with a Christian (some Jewish) background and probably mostly held these beliefs. But they gradually discovered that the best way to investigate the world is to assume that it is governed by consistant naturalistic laws that can be probed directly without appeal to past Authority.
This worked out stunningly well. So we now have a scientific practice that always excludes supernatural things and expanations. And people have since noted that the supernatural cannot be investigated by the same means since it has no physical effects to study or test. And anytime you want to, you can create new supernatural things (my Blablablob). Science takes a dim view of such ad hoc explainations.
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WBraun
climber
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Man is the architect of his own fortune. That is an old well known English maxim and the good fortune that the man has evolved out for him at the present moment can be amply verified as soon as we receive our morning newspapers.
Thoughtful men must now seriously think how we are marching towards the progressive way of human civilization. The influence of modern civilizing process, by the highest planning commissions, is gradually leading us to a destination summarized as follows:
1. Destruction of Faith, Truthfulness, cleanliness, Forgiveness, Mercy, Longevity, Strength and Memory.
2. Accumulation of vast wealth is the standard of recognition for one's parentage, behavior and good qualities.
3. Black-market in every business deal.
4. Sexuality in conjugal love.
5. Only a piece of thread on the body marks the sign of Brahmanism.
6. Only a red garment as the sign of a sannyåsî.
7. No justice in the law Court without money.
8. Impertinence as the sign of education.
9. Poverty means dishonesty.
10. Pride means honesty.
11. Acceptance by contract means marriage.
12. Keeping long hairs means beauty.
13. Exaggeration means truthfulness.
14. Filling the stomach means self-realization.
15. Providing the wife & children means ability.
16. Religiosity means to acquire some extraordinary name & fame.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 07:21pm PT
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Sally,
Like many other things, it looks like Canada does better teaching science than the US. But this problem has been around for longer than G. Bush has been a player. He is certainly no help, but I don't think he is doing much harm on this question either. The Bush Administration is doing a lot of harm with its politcal manipulation of science to suit corporate interests. But these are mostly environmental issues. I doubt that they have paid much attention to evolution.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 07:27pm PT
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WB,
You tell one sort of "spiritual" story. I bet Sally would tell a different one. Arete and I like to make up our own. This strikes me as good reason for doubting that any of these stories are more than made up tails. But I will grant that you are telling a far older story than my Blablablob.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2005 - 07:30pm PT
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Oh yes, the Bush people have also faked the science on sex education. This might be the main place where they have affected what gets taught in schools.
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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So fingerlock, where did the universe come from?
All these "natural laws of science"...who established them...
just by chance?
If Darwin had known about DNA he would have never published
"Origin of the species".
Inteligent design makes alot more sense from a microbiology
standpoint.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050530fa_fact
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Ouch!
climber
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The human brain evolved genetically engineered to provide explanations for that which can never be explained. It came with a do-it-yourself kit called imagination. It may be the hope and curse of mankind.
Bear #46 is not so burdened. He just does what he does and never asks why. He hasn't a clue why he gets so fat in the fall.
Just assumes it's because he is sleepy. He told me this.
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Sally OConnor
Social climber
Canada
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Who is bear 46? I must explore this forum further.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Shack, you first ought to tell us what you WANT dearly to believe, otherwise we might think your beliefs are les important than the search for the truth. But of course it's your life and your business.
And somebody wrote: "And anytime you want to, you can create new supernatural things."
You lost your way there cowboy. You're thinking that supernatural automatically refers to a "thing" with no substance and no effect, that there is no actual existence there at all (no material to measure, hence no existence) ergo it is an idea that you can simply make up and which doesn't exist save in our minds. Is it possible for you to imagine another model? You're trying to reckon sthe supernatural by way of material.
JL
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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"Who is bear 46? I must explore this forum further." Bear #46 used to be a ferocious grizzly (ursus arctos horribilis) in Montana until he got demoted, stripped of his hump, and sent to Yosemite as ursus americanus americanus, where he is just another Camp4 dumpster diver.
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