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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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If you are being lowered, keep an eye on that rope, two brains are better than one.
"Hey spackle brain, too much Chronic?
You are about to f*#k me up."
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada, CA
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May 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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mooser
Some testing has shown that marking with Sharpie results in loss of strength. Another study says even commercial rope marking pens cause problems - search Canadian Alpine Club + rope marking.
Erik
edit from Canadian Alpine Club
MARKING OF ROPES
That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.
Last year this topic re-appeared on the Internet as well as in Climbing and Rock & Ice. In both magazines the use of felt pens was recommended for the (middle) marking of ropes, while the Internet correspondence centered on the damage. The press, despite being told about the possible damage, did nothing about it. Among the users there was doubt about the sources of the information.
Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application. Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held. Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry, possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope, but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the non-dry and superdry sample.
Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.
Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."
The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen. Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is available how long they stay on.
The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 13, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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i don't get it. i always, always, always tie into the end of the rope. always. the product of nearly 40 years of habit. you are ropemates with the person you are belaying right?
and i can't even remember the number of times we ran out of cord when lowering someone. it happens. it always happens. it's inevitable. that's one other reason to always tie in with your ropemate.
must be an oldschool thing?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 13, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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thats why i free climb, not for extra jimmies, just so i don't have to face somebody's family, wimp that i am.
it all started when i stepped on my sisters parakeet and squashed it to death when i was three.
She watched me kill her pet and started ballin.
Tramatic Engram #479.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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This was not an accident - it was in attentiveness ad nauseum by both the belayer and the climber.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 13, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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It must be bitchin to know everything and never f*#k up.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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May 13, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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I find it interesting how quickly some folks jump to conclusions without having known either climber, without access to the facts and having not been there when it happened.
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maui_mark
climber
under a coconut tree
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May 13, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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bluering.... are you serious?
you blame the GriGri?
do you blame bullets when people get shot?? really?
Its unfortunate that this type of accident still happens. Regardless of experience it can be avoided.
From my time working in the ER..... those kine of fractures are BAD. I wish everyone luck in the recovery process...Including the belayer :(
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 13, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Hey Atch, do I get an Honest Stupidity Award for pulling this off? I had to put a bail biner on a bolt, clip into bolt and yank rope to re rig throught the bailer. Rap on!
Thank God my wife saw that though, "Hey you know I only have about 8 feet of rope left?"
"Errr, hold on a sec...." (start reaching for a clip-in!!!)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 13, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Maui, that was half-sarcastic about the Grigri.
They tend to have too much device self reliance instead of attention, 2 hands on the rope. The other half is people always blame Grigris in failures when one is used, especially in gyms.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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UIAA tests show that a sharpie reduces the strength of the rope. My independant tests of retired ropes with multiple sharpie aplications over a long period of time ( mark fades and is re applied several times) show that the rope will allways break at a knott or sharp edge and never at the sharpie mark unless of course that mark is on the sharp edge. Even then you have to really mosh the heck out of the truck to break the rope. Additionaly, how the heck are you going to mannage to fall on the middle mark of a 60m rope??? I have 100% confidence in sharpie marked ropes YMMV
Much better to just tie into the rope. Even if you have a good visible mark it is easy to get distracted and miss the mark. Just tie in and close the system.
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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May 13, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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I made that same horrible mistake back in high school with a ropes course rope. My buddy fell 10 feet or so onto a boulder, it was really lame. I felt horribly guilty.
I always leave a knot in the end of the rope.
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crøtch
climber
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May 14, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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RE: middle marks
Anyone else sew dental floss through the sheath of their rope making short "whiskers" that can be seen and felt at the mid-point?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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Had a belayer drop me 20' to the ground on a top rope.
His first words, "I didn't think YOU would fall."
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Evel
Trad climber
the cliffs of insanity
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May 14, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Sincere wishes for a speedy and complete recovery, but you and yer pard get the stupid award.
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Gaar Lausman
Trad climber
behind you
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May 14, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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In almost any case I would agree with most of the posts here, but I have a different connection with the topic.
The People involved (no names so dont ask) in the Accident AND the Rescue are good friends of mine.
Both climbers are very experenced, skilled, and even knowing what has happend I would trust them both without hesitaion with my life.. I have talked to the injured climber and this was a plain and simple accident..
Climbing is a Dangerous activity in which everyday sh#t can go very wrong, and those of us who get to climb 7 days a week on real rock can easily forget about that. It does suck that things like this happen, but some good does come out of it.
How many of you will check your ends of the rope a little more closely, or commuicate with your belayer a little better. Even if its just for a month that, incidents like this sit in your head, it has brought awareness to you. Untill you let your guard down. I let mine down all the damn time, I konw that. But for the next month or so, It will be better.
G
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GDavis
Trad climber
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May 14, 2009 - 02:41am PT
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Maybe its because I don't do a lot of toproping or lowering off chains/bolts, but this is so nuts. I really, in all honesty, can never see someone doing this. Its not like a rappel off the end of your rope. You have to almost TRY to do it.
What color are most ropes, bright green? Baby blue? You don't notice that snake like thing getting smaller and smaller as your lowering a human being down? I feel bad for em both, but I gotta tell you, I personally would never tie in with that guy even though this event will probably keep him/her from doing it ever again.
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Gaar Lausman
Trad climber
behind you
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May 14, 2009 - 02:47am PT
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Yeah new ropes are baby blue, and bright green, orange, hell there is probably a Zebra jiz color too; and you know what I bet every fuggin gumby in St George would buy the Zebra jiz color just to look cool. WTF does that matter. I have 4 ropes ALL of them look black after one day in Zion.
Sorry I went off...climb long enough and people get hurt!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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May 14, 2009 - 03:10am PT
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I think I've seen stats somewhere that this is the single most common accident for sport climbers. Personally I don't do yo-yo sport stuff, but even I know ITS dangerous. As others have said, belayer always ties in; or, at the least, tie a knot in the end of the rope. EVERY TIME. NO EXCEPTIONS. Don't they teach that in sport 101? Maybe climbers get in the gym climber mode, where the ropes all reach the ground, and they just space out in the outdoor context. Has to be just about as dumb as not completing your tie-in knot. But it will continue to happen...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 14, 2009 - 07:10am PT
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Gdavis and others who get all uppity about this type of accident. Rope markings won't prevent it, looking at the ends won't happen either because the belayer is looking up At the climber as they lower. The belayer never sees the rope untill its too late. The only way to prevent the accident is for the belayer to tie in or tie knotts in the end.
I am willing to bet that the nay sayers don't tie in 100% of the time when yo yo belaying so I will call a big BS on them. There but for the grace of god go I
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