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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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Aya, perhaps you could rephrase your question. There is a long runon sentence in your previous post with a number of question marks.
Hagerty, many climbers were involved. If we had some way of sorting those involved from those not we would.
Rbob, unfortunately they are not giving us any kind of tax break. Additionally, if we do put our land into a conservation easement, the value of the easement and the tax benefit is pegged to the post zoning law appraisal price rather than the pre zoning law appraisal price.
I'll also add, portions of three of the five pieces now closed were previosuly slated to be given to the Preserve. This is, of course, no longer the case.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Caped, get out the facts! What is the current zoning, what density is permitted, and what environmental limitations are there on your property? Now what are the proposed changes and what will be the zoning, density, and environmental limitations on your property then? What are the current taxes and what will be the new taxes?
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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Kent,
1. Do you concede that the vast majority of climbers at the gunks have never heard of the ongoing dispute between a few landowners, the Preserve, and the few climbers of the GCC? And if so, what exactly do landowners hope to accomplish with today's closure?
2. The vast majority of gunks climbers have not been impacted by this ongoing dispute until this closure of the Nears. Do you think will take new "No Trespassing" signs posted on the trail seriously?
3. Who are the climbers with the "bad attitude" that you stated precipitated the closure of the section of the Nears? Are they the average gunks climber who knows of the existence of neither you, nor the GCC? Are they the small handful of climbers from the GCC? Are they the small handful of climbers whom you found trespassing on your property in the Bayards? Are they the small handful of climbers who post on gunks.com? Are they some other subset of climbers?
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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Actually, even if you think that the majority of gunks climbers ARE fully aware of this ongoing dispute, I still would like to know what closing the cliffs is intended to accomplish.
Perhaps I presume too much when I presume that there was a point to the closure?
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Questions from Aya
"1. Do you concede that the vast majority of climbers at the gunks have never heard of the ongoing dispute between a few landowners, the Preserve, and the few climbers of the GCC?"
I don't really know. It's been on gunks.com for years and although not many post there any more, gunks.com has a viral quality to it. Many that I talk to seem to know what has been said there.
"And if so, what exactly do landowners hope to accomplish with today's closure?"
Raise awareness of the issues at hand. For the most part, now that the law has passed, the climbing community wants to sweep we landowners under the rug and pretend our land is really just part of the Preserve.
"2. The vast majority of gunks climbers have not been impacted by this ongoing dispute until this closure of the Nears. Do you think will take new "No Trespassing" signs posted on the trail seriously?"
Some will, some won't. Those that don't will make the point that climbers don't respect private property rights and that will be documented and publicized.
"3. Who are the climbers with the "bad attitude" that you stated precipitated the closure of the section of the Nears? Are they the average gunks climber who knows of the existence of neither you, nor the GCC? Are they the small handful of climbers from the GCC? Are they the small handful of climbers whom you found trespassing on your property in the Bayards? Are they the small handful of climbers who post on gunks.com? Are they some other subset of climbers?"
I'm not going to name names. From my experience, they seem to be scattered across all groups of climbers.
From a landowners perspective, not just mine, climbers at the gunks have a sense of entitlement to access on private land. A great example is the AI Wall, which has been closed for some time now. One has to either walk, ride a bike, or drive up the driveway to get to the wall. Even after "No Trespassing" signs were prominently posted on both sides of the beginning of the driveway, climbers would cruise right on in anyway, passing right through the signs. Only after the police were called, complaints were filed, and a few climbers had to show up in court did that stop.
As for the impact of the closure on you and people like you, in my original post I apologized for any inconvenience to respectful climbers, but this is unfortunately the way it has to be for now.
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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Todd, the zoning law is 125 pages long. I'll respond with some highlights later, or perhaps tomorrow.
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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>1. Do you concede that the vast majority of climbers at the gunks have never >heard of the ongoing dispute between a few landowners, the Preserve, and the few >climbers of the GCC?"
>I don't really know. It's been on gunks.com for years and although not many post >there any more, gunks.com has a viral quality to it. Many that I talk to seem to >know what has been said there.
What do you expect the reaction of these climbers to the closure to be?
>"And if so, what exactly do landowners hope to accomplish with today's closure?"
>Raise awareness of the issues at hand. For the most part, now that the law has >passed, the climbing community wants to sweep we landowners under the rug >and pretend our land is really just part of the Preserve.
What do you hope that raising awareness among the climbers will accomplish? Obviously, increased awareness in and of itself does nothing. So what do you expect the outcome of increased awareness to be?
>2. The vast majority of gunks climbers have not been impacted by this ongoing >dispute until this closure of the Nears. Do you think will take new "No Trespassing" >signs posted on the trail seriously?"
>Some will, some won't. Those that don't will make the point that climbers don't >respect private property rights and that will be documented and publicized.
What do you expect this to accomplish?
>3. Who are the climbers with the "bad attitude" that you stated precipitated the >closure of the section of the Nears? Are they the average gunks climber who >knows of the existence of neither you, nor the GCC? Are they the small handful of >climbers from the GCC? Are they the small handful of climbers whom you found >trespassing on your property in the Bayards? Are they the small handful of c>limbers who post on gunks.com? Are they some other subset of climbers?"
>I'm not going to name names. From my experience, they seem to be scattered >across all groups of climbers.
>From a landowners perspective, not just mine, climbers at the gunks have a sense >of entitlement to access on private land. A great example is the AI Wall, which has >been closed for some time now. One has to either walk, ride a bike, or drive up the >driveway to get to the wall. Even after "No Trespassing" signs were prominently >posted on both sides of the beginning of the driveway, climbers would cruise right >on in anyway, passing right through the signs. Only after the police were called, >complaints were filed, and a few climbers had to show up in court did that stop.
So this is my opinion, and you obviously disagree, but my gut feeling is that there are a lot of climbers who have been climbing for a long, long time at the gunks. Without having the slightest clue as to why there were suddenly "no trespassing" signs in an area where no trespassing was ever enforced before, it would probably take a note of explanation for some people to believe it actually applied to climbing. I don't think it's very difficult to imagine that the average climber is going to scratch their head at a "no trespassing" sign on the trail at the Nears. A note of explanation saying, sorry climbers, but we need to close access for x, y, and z reason would probably go a heck of a lot further in ensuring compliance (and raising awareness) than taking climbers to court.
I can't possibly imagine how taking climbers to court for climbing in the Near Trapps would possibly not antagonize climbers even more than they already are.
>As for the impact of the closure on you and people like you, in my original post I >apologized for any inconvenience to respectful climbers, but this is unfortunately >the way it has to be for now.
Which is all well and good. I still won't support the decision to close access.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I agree with Aya, with a note that the obvious outcome of this is normally polite, well-behaved climbers will join the antagonized or disrespectful climbers.
I think you're going to get more support for the new zoning law this way.
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nx
climber
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If there was no zoning law then the people could:
A) Not sell their land
- they don't lose anything.
B) Sell their land with a specific agreement that it cannot
be developed
- the land is NOT AS VALUABLE.
C) Sell it to someone who will build a McMansion or golf course
or whatever
- your poor old ladies make it rich.
You suggest that the preserve pay competitive
prices and bid - and potentially lose - against people who will
develop the land.
Seems like your way of raising attention to try
develop the ridge. "destroy the ridge." you might call it.
--
It sucks that land value went down for a group of
people. And the community benefits
from their "loss". But any plot of land in that area is
still worth a lot of money - and keeps the value
that you claim to appreciate [i.e. in a non-exploited state].
I guess those of us who don't own land will never
understand the the thrill of controlling it.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I also agree with Aya, wondering what possible effect a closing of this area will have. The closure's been held over the Gunks.com forum's head for at least a few years now, as the ultimate act if....(if what,mm was never made clear, really).
Now the closure's enacted, and when it become's clear that the only thing that will change is that the 911 operators will dread picking up the phone on weekends when they see calls originating from certain numbers....(joke), then what? Is Phase Two REALLY to post names of trespassing offenders? Will the names of the minor children of the unsuspecting, leaf-peeping, tourists be included in this...what will it be? Letters to town newspaper? The police Blotter copy/pasted on rc.com/Stopo and Gunks.com? I mean.....rwally.
This all seems - so - inappropriate/ineffective a way to address political process. While I am sure the issues Kent is concerned with have value - Go to the town council, not internet climbers, for christ's sake. Take whatever action is taken to get the issues on meeting agenda's, write the politicians who actually DO deal with these things.
You ask "Does this upset anyone but me?" I would guess nearly anyone would be upset to know a person is actually going to starve to death via commercial cat food. Some of us actually DO know people who subsist by eating from garbage cans. I find it sort of difficult to imagine that someone with several acres of property is going to be forced to sell it at...what, under $1K an acre? Forgive my bluntness, but it's hard not to read that statement(pet food aisle shopping) as one based on emotion and not fact.
....wondering what would be of the Shawangunk Ridge had the Smiley's focused on maximizing their profit in passing the land into the future rather than creating the Mohonk Preserve...
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climbingreen
climber
Where I Am
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Tried the Near Trapps once...Pretty dirty cliff, but the route we did was good. Called something like "Magic Line" on the far end(towards Milbrook). A shame about the trail though.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Here is one prime reason I don't frequent gunks.com. These pissing matches absolutely suck and are as bad as the political threads on the taco. But it's easy to avoid the politics here; just don't read 70% of the posts.
I have two other reasons for not hanging at my 'local' messageboard. Micro-management of threads and more pissing matches about stupid details of climbs between the same 6 people over-and-over-and-over. I know hell and it's got a name, gunks.com.
Climbing on private property manifests two distinct angles of attack: (1) The loudmouth who boasts about climbing on private property to receive some sort of tacit or not so tacit approval and then there are the (2) stealth climbers who quietly approach, climb, and leave no trace of their trespass.
I've seen more than one climbing area 'officially' shut down becasue of #1 and I can provide a disturbing list of nice east coast climbing areas now off-limits. I've not seen a climbing area shut down because of #2.
I think I'll go free Spinal Traction this weekend with a boom box cranking out some 1980's power rock.... I am #1.
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climbingreen
climber
Where I Am
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Judging by the size of the resort type thing over past skytop, the only reason the whole place isn't shut down is because of the amount of people recreating (Climbing, biking, walking) along the Trapps road.
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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Haha Gunkie. First, if you're going to attempt to free Spinal Traction, I wanna watch. Second, if you pull it off, then as far as I'm concerned you can climb anywhere you want.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I understand Kent's interest in getting as wide a readership as possible, but carrying on three parallel discussions about what is surely about as local an issue as it is possible to have is nuts.
Take it over to gunks.com (you too, Gunkie!), which is surely the appropriate venue for this particular discussion, whatever gdc's perceived faults may be in general.
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2009 - 08:42am PT
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Zoo,
The last two sentences of my gunks.com post "Climbers easy access to climbing on private land is more important than the financial security of elderly people on the ridge. It's extraordinarily selfish."
Posts like yours will simply motivate more landowners to close their land.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I'll go so far out as to say you, Kent, might actually be doing more harm than good for that elderly neighbor. If I read your posts correctly, it would seem they are counting on you to effect change. They've entrusted you.
And.....what are you REALLY doing to further their cause? The internet forums are real, in a sense, but are simply a tool. And for the goal you are looking to achieve(or are you? ie; the goal of rescinding/changing zoning laws), I would hazard you've been fairly ineffectual.
You've spent years of those people's time as they patiently wait for the caped crusader to save their land. And if you are truly honest with yourself - what have you achieved to present, even in part?
You say the goal is to raise awareness? Well....then maybe you HAVE achieved something. Imagine that. But, so far as I have seen, you have never suggested courses of action you wish people would take beyond simply *being aware* of this plight, and I don't think *raised awareness* is what that elderly neighbor is looking to you to provide(according to the tone of your postings).
The posting of 'No Trespassing' signs is not very clear, in telling the story you want told. I have seen the P/L spray painted on the cliffs last year or so. I thought it meant "Power Line" and had been put there with temporary paint to indicate some buried cable!
Letters to newspapers, petitions, protests, public notices, and - I would think most importantly - getting the issues on the agendas at local government meetings is more in line with what I would think as effective ways to initiate change. At the LEAST, why not include some form of notice of the issue along with those No Trespassing signs? A short blurb about why the sign, with an easy to remember URL they can go to for more information, schedule of meetings with the issue on agenda, petitions to sign, links to news articles and stuff like that....
I DO feel bad for a person who has been wrongfully handled by the government, Kent. Don't get me wrong. But I'll come right out and tell you that I believe the protection of the lands in the Shawangunk ridge - the homes of animals, insects, plants and others less fortunate that even your elderly neighbor - is more important to me.
Your elderly neighbor has YOU to help offset their food budget(for surely you would not let them eat pet food, as the types that are more economical than people food really ARE poisonous). I would happily donate money to a fund specifically set up to provide funds for nutritious foods, if that is actually an issue at hand.
Who is going to feed the animals who have nowhere to forage? And that's only the very smallest hint of the problem when ecosystems are destroyed.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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its not that people don't care about the financial future of senior citizens and want them to eat cat food. most climbers simply dont see that the old people will be eating steak every night if a few of us no longer climb back there...
if they were being put out on the street, i could see the righteous indignation. it is a fallacy to assume that anyone has a "right" to profiting off the sale of their land. that is something determined by the market and local zoning regs. I think the current housing market trend demonstrates this adequately.
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2009 - 09:56am PT
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Happie,
You're offering up another straw man argument, namely, if the little old ladies aren't destoyed then the land will be developed and ridge ecosystems will be destroyed. This is a false dichotomy.
The land should be protected. The burden should be shared. What are you willing to contribute?
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