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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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"The facts are known to those that need to know. Are people on this silly forum on a need to know basis?
Obviously, nothing new or mysterious happened here. So what's the rush? What's the harm of a respectful delay?"
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The rush you ask?
How about the concept that the information garnered from one accident might just prevent another from occurring?
You might be surprised to realize that more people "lurk" on a forum than actually post. In other words - the audience for potentially life-saving information is much much greater than you give credit.
I find it amazing that of all of the potentially fatal sports I have been involved with - rock climbing stands alone in it's resistance to sharing information that could protect others.
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that there are no requirements for certification in the sport - you simply go shopping at REI and away you go.
In comparison, both SCUBA and sky diving require certified training to even enter into the sport along with recurring safety programs that do disclose accidents whatever their cause.
Let's take sky diving as an example - the drop zone S&TA Officer conducts an investigation with all witnesses immediately upon an accident occurring. A report is drafted to the USPA with 3 days and is published online within similar days and in hardcopy within a month. This information goes out to ALL jumpers - not just the close friends. A well run drop zone then has their S&TA (Safety and Training Adviser) review all accidents with the local jumpers at least once a year on Safety Day.
At no time does anyone criticize the process as being ghoulish or uncaring - rather, they look at it a chance to prevent a similar accident from occurring. Just as a jumper practices cut-away and pin-check of their gear every time they jump - they also practice a mental checklist of "what-ifs" based on the stories of those who did not do so.
What is it about this process that disturbs you so?
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Mimi
climber
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I'm a trained scientist, jerk. People like you disturb me. My father used to describe autopsies at dinner. As Chris2 stated so well on the other thread:
Accident analysis is valuable so that such accidents do not occur in the future. If there is no immediate danger, there is no need for immediate analysis.
As the individuals that are aware of the accident are experienced, people should feel confident that these individuals see no need for immediate analysis, and respect those opinions.
This is not only true to rockclimbing but all types of situations where someone has been injured or died.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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let me hear it for me
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WBraun
climber
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The locker has self proclaimed himself as "the" moderator .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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For God's sake, just tell us WTF happened already...
There. I said it.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mimi - I was only attempting to inject a modicum of adult discussion into this topic and in no way wish to disparage the departed.
I sense that you are beyond rational discussion on this topic and will cease to participate at this time.
Have a nice day.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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I would like to state for the record that if I ever die climbing or in some other activity,
please let it be known exactly what happened AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, regardless of
how embarrassing the circumstances are. We are all human, and I'm damn lucky I'm
knott already dead. I'm the last person on Earth who would want the info withheld.
Dave Buchanan aka Hardman Knott, April 4th, 2009
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"and will cease to participate at this time"
...which is exactly what Mimi intended.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Locker wrote:
"SUTPID" comes to mind...
Sutpid is as Sutpid does...
Edit: Laugh all you want, Locker, but I am 100% sincere, and it is knott a joke.
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Mimi
climber
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Nothing but foolpids will do around here!
RD, an arbiter of reason, are you?
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chuey
climber
Ca.
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According to newspaper articles, which are all most of us have to go by:
"Mr. Stark was the lead climber and was followed by Alfred Kwok. Mr. Stark, who was not wearing a helmet, experienced some difficulty with his climb and began to descend, the news release said. His equipment, including bolts and clips designed to halt a fall, failed, and he struck Kwok on the way down. Kwok also fell, but his equipment stopped his fall."
His equipment, including bolts and clips designed to halt a fall, failed
Bolts failed??
And we are expected to not be interested?? WTF?
If the articles are wrong, then tell us what really happened.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whenever ya'll get around to posting the Accident report. Post it on another thread and nuke this one. Too late for this one I'm afraid
Peace
Karl
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Mimi
climber
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fooey, why can't you accept that the articles are inaccurate and leave it at that? Are you that afraid that something you are currently doing in an unsafe manner will eventually get you killed?
Baba edit: was this a good hijack or what? I was disappointed that the Firesign Theater stuff didn't take off more.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Have you guys been outside today?
OMG ! it is absolutely gorgeous !
I can have fun pulling weeds in this weather. Wish I had time to climb, but with Spring break coming, we get to close the biz and enjoy 14 days playing in the sunshine !!!
Go outside and check it out. Beautiful I tell ya !!
edit:
in SoCal anyhow...: )
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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could someone draw a 4-box comic strip of this accident for the
non-emotionally impaired supertopo readers.
Something simple like stick figures drawn onto the climbing topo of the route would serve to enlighten...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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quote;The rush you ask?
How about the concept that the information garnered from one accident might just prevent another from occurring?
You might be surprised to realize that more people "lurk" on a forum than actually post. In other words - the audience for potentially life-saving information is much much greater than you give credit.
I find it amazing that of all of the potentially fatal sports I have been involved with - rock climbing stands alone in it's resistance to sharing information that could protect others.
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that there are no requirements for certification in the sport - you simply go shopping at REI and away you go.
In comparison, both SCUBA and sky diving require certified training to even enter into the sport along with recurring safety programs that do disclose accidents whatever their cause.
Let's take sky diving as an example - the drop zone S&TA Officer conducts an investigation with all witnesses immediately upon an accident occurring. A report is drafted to the USPA with 3 days and is published online within similar days and in hardcopy within a month. This information goes out to ALL jumpers - not just the close friends. A well run drop zone then has their S&TA (Safety and Training Adviser) review all accidents with the local jumpers at least once a year on Safety Day.
At no time does anyone criticize the process as being ghoulish or uncaring - rather, they look at it a chance to prevent a similar accident from occurring. Just as a jumper practices cut-away and pin-check of their gear every time they jump - they also practice a mental checklist of "what-ifs" based on the stories of those who did not do so.
What is it about this process that disturbs you so? end quote;
this seems fairly reasonable. the response is to call this guy a jerk??
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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i think locker's post's have made it clear what the lesson to be learned is.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Still, tradmanclimbs makes a good point.
In a similar discussion with me Malcolm made the observation that there was no choke point at which to implement certification.
But I think it is coming (along with licenses and mandatory insurance).
Just the way of things.
But people will always mess up.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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certification and regulation is irrelevant in this case.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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I've been reading these accident threads for years. This has got to be the first I've seen where people specifically didn't want to allow an internet documentation/discussion about the causes of an accident. At least the first I've noticed since these are generally hard to read from beginning to end. It seems as if most people want to discuss something regardless of the topic, until it somehow involves them. At that point it's suddenly not okay for others to partake in a discussion and somehow offensive.
Would locker or Mimi give a damn if this were someone else's accident, perhaps a stranger? Probably not which makes their opinion so biased as to be completely ignorable. The "jerk" comment to a perfectly rational suggestion tells me that someone is in a bad emotional place and feels that censoring others free speak, on the grounds that it's just not appropriate, is now acceptable and even desirable.
I don't particularly care about this specific accident (no offense intended) but I do care a tiny bit when I see such pushy behavior being put forth to squelch the transfer of information in a free society. So let's hear the analysis. If someone doesn't want to read it or supply their input, they can simply leave so as not to be offended. No one is making Mimi or locker, or anyone else, read this.
Dave
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