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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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A good friend once said to me - "We all do dumb things, and most of the time we get away with it. But sometimes we don't."
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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well gee, too bad he is hurting, good thing his kid has a daddy still, BUT...
i see no reason to sugar coat anything here.
it's f*#king unbelievable to me that this guy somehow got to the point where he is comfortable leading ice climbs, and still is able to make this elementary mistake. i mean seriously- the guy set up a TR for his friends, with no metal at all?!
seriously, think about it, the guy would have had to untie and then re-thread behind the webbing, right? why would you do that? so you don't have to clip a few biners? i don't get it as a "mistake", sounds more like something he chose to do (of course that is just speculation w/ no foundation).
running the rope behind webbing or cord, not for rapping but for TR'ing, that's simply negligent (in fact i think i remember something in CO several years ago where a woman sued some guy who took her out and said he knew what he was doing, but then the all webbing/no metal anchor he built failed and she decked from the TR).
was this his 1st lead ever?
was that the 1st time he ever dealt w/ a non-chain anchor?
(and did his friends have any experience? were they aware of his level of competence? do people really just go ICE CLIMBING and not openly discuss their safety systems? that's just absurd to me)
and in the article posted above, he talks about missing his wife and young son, well what about his partner's wife and son?
the only thing worse that killing yourself with stupidity or carelessness would be killing someone else with stupidity or carelessness and having to carry that around with you.
edit-
too bad the guy got hurt
lucky to be alive
but this just goes to show you that whomever you choose to climb with, you are responsible for yourself and your own safety at all times, period.
further, it at adds to me inclination to tell people being unsafe that they are flat out being unsafe (which sounds simple but there are always so many shades of grey).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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I agree that you allways back up the V threads unless you personaly set the anchor or can see the whole thing. Often I am the guy who set that anchor a few days or a week ago ( I also often use two or more threads) so it is interesting for me to see how the various weather patterns affect them. Some of the busy classics @ the lake and Cannon end up with huge anchors so it can be pretty kosher to just go with what is there provideing you use your head. This accident really is crazy though. The leader had to know how he set his rope up and it is hard to fanthom why he did not say. Oh crap! I didn't set the rope for a TR, we better pull it .....
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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do you always check others TR anchors?
Yes, that is the habit I got into when I started climbing, but even moreso when climbing with new partners.
Sorry again for what happened :(
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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I also check TR anchors. Even if I am just up there soloing I will look at the anchors as I cut accross the top of the cliff and won't hessitate to help someone correct a critical mistake. Worst accident at our crag was A Failed TR anchor.
I ended up guideing a NYC coupple for free one day when it was obvious that the gentleman did not know how to build the trad anchor that he was fumbling with. I was really laid back about it and asked him if he wanted help with it. The guy was smart and gladly accepted. I gave them a TR/ anchor building lesson and allmost dropped them a half dozen times because she was so smoking hot that I couldn't concentrate to save our lives!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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back in the day a buddy of mine did the same stupid thing. Ran out of biners so he wrapped a sling around the rope (lead climbing) and somehow attached it to the rock, then led on. He later fell, burnt through the web instantly (obviously) and decked. Broken back. He too was 21 or something, full of spit and no sense what-so-ever.
I think Pete or Ricardo said years ago when discussing a big wall accident - some people just don't belong up there. There is a certain degree of common sense necessary or you are just a risk to yourself and others.
How many professional "courses" would one have to take before the instructor bothered (it seems so obvious) to tell you "don't ever run rope through nylon" I doubt they'd actually ever articulate that little bit of wisdom. But most of us have figured it out somehow....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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I'm glad this guy is more or less o.k.
It sounds like he rigged to rap and then the party decided to yo-yo the route without remembering to re-rig. Probably an honest yet major mistake.
I don't know shite about ice climbing, and never will, but it seems like a popular route would have rings or some other metal at the anchor?
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Matt,
"running the rope behind webbing or cord, not for rapping but for TR'ing, that's simply negligent (in fact i think i remember something in CO several years ago where a woman sued some guy who took her out and said he knew what he was doing, but then the all webbing/no metal anchor he built failed and she decked from the TR). "
The incident you are thinking of was in Utah. The gal it happened to is a friend, the guy was a dirt bag and the jury agreed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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From the description it sounded like there was either rings or a biner at the rap station. Why that was not used is a mystery. Even if he only planned on rapping there would be no good reason to not use the rings or biners. Sounds like one of those decisions that he will have to live with and ponder the rest of his days. So lucky that it was the leader and not annother member of the party that got hurt.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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Chiloe asked the question I was wondering about.
How on earth do you get to the point of being confident enough to lead the Des without dying and yet not follow one of the most rudimentary rules of the game?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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72 feet on the back, the body is amazing, heck, how high do we have to go to be assured of not surviving?
I just want to get knocked out and die, non of this quad stuff.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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Sh#t like that happens, be careful, out there!
on the other hand,
I belayed Roadkill Phil once when he led the The (rigid) Designator. He stayed up at the top to belay me and my fogged glasses.
"Whadya get in for a belay anchor?" I asked from mid-height.
'Some slings frozen into the ice," he answered.
Kept me on my front points!
When I got up there and cleaned my lenses, I saw that he had a more substantial anchor than he had led me to believe. I like climbing with people that have that sort of sense of humor!
Roadkill Phil, 'Bouldering' around the base of the designator, just after the turn of the century.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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this guy should sell his rack and go free solo, so no one else gets hurt.
in Extreme Ice, the guy had to drill three long holes for an anchor because the ice was too mank for a screw.
then he rapped into an river sink hole that went 1/2 mile down thru the glacier.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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rhyang,
> Another recommended tip when rapping off a v-thread:
> back it up with an ice screw (or two) for the first
> person(s) down.
amen. a climber _way_ better than me (not that that that limits the field all that much) -- taught me long ago to back up any v-thread rap with a screw for at least the first down. and if things still looked sketchy, burn the screw. he convinced me i was worth a screw (um, as it were).
but was it a v-thread? or just some tat off something more permanent. nothing i've read tells anything on this front.
~~~
rapp'ing off of old nylon... well, i've done that. t'roping off the same, nylon on nylon, is rather counter-indicated. friction happens, even in the cold and wet. but then all those nearby (and hopefully even the rest of us) have since figured that out. i've done dumber things, so who am i to say.
~~~
i wish chris a quick and complete recovery. and peace to Swedeclimber and his beau; a very rough day out, surely.
^,,^
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Swedeclimber
Ice climber
Los Altos, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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philo and Chiloe does have an interesting point. To me though, this is exactly what separates a mistake from bad judgement. For bad judgement there has to be judgement and consideration (and this should indeed always be part of climbing), but for a mistake it only takes... well, a mistake.
I've climbed with Cri for years and always trusted him. Still do. Although he will have to shapen his game when it comes to building anchors :-)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 30, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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"I think Pete or Ricardo said years ago when discussing a big wall accident - some people just don't belong up there. There is a certain degree of common sense necessary or you are just a risk to yourself and others."
We all make mistakes from time to time [like me when I busted my leg] and some of us are lucky enough to live to tell the tale. Some mistakes are a result of a small series of mistakes, a synergistic effect where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And others are a result of just plain being boneheaded.
We know what kind of mistake this was.
So it's fortunate he lived to tell the tale! Don't do such a dumbass move again. Good luck in your healing, mate - see you back soon, eh?
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jbar
Social climber
Asymptote
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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I guess I gave the guy credit for having the ability and experience to leat up the designator. In reading the article I never assumed he pulled the tr rope directly through the webbing. I was thinking someone had placed the webbing and rapped from it and this guy comes along and places his biners on the old webbing instead of from the metal anchors. This is also not a good idea since he didn't know how long the webbing had been there, etc. I thought the story was that he yo yo'd his friends from the suspect webbing using biners and then it broke on him after he cleaned the gear and started his rap. Did I totally mess that up?? Could ANY lead climber truly be o.k. with pulling a tr through bare webbing over and over?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Mar 31, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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I use to believe only idiots made mistakes...then after several decades of climbing I did. Resulted in a 30' ground fall and a year plus of recovery.
Nice that we can make mistakes and learn from them. But I am long past condeming anyone...that lives or dies from a mistake in our sport. Obviously they are so easy to avoid in hindsight. Just takes one momenatry lapse of judgement or attention.
Not may of us here can say that has never happened, just that the lapses have yet to catch us at the wrong moment.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 31, 2009 - 06:27am PT
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hey there dane burns... say, well said... even with kids, and house hold chores, the same saying goes...
and in so many different ways...
at work, too...
one must always take care...
god bless, thanks for the share...
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