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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Funny, once the war was over, the Brits wouldn't even re-elect Churchill. Great man, but not perfect.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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"Better yet we will take the red counties, you can have the blue counties. Mighty puny country you'll have there. "
That's right Howeierd...bigger is better. Those maps are the trolliest of trolls. The red chunks are most of the land and the blue bits are where most of the people are. You can break it down a milliion ways if you want to look at the red vs blue. Red areas are less educated, have worse access to healthcare, higher unemployment, etc... If you want to look at it like that it doesn't seem like being 'red' is doing a whole lot for them.
Funny too that now being 'red' is cool for the same people for whom being 'red' was the deepest of insults not too long ago.
The realities are that most states are either 'red' or 'blue' by a few percentage points. Only the jackest of asses buy any one party's platform completely and those red/blue lines are being redrawn all the time. Ultimately the black and white color scheem is just a devisive tool. The 2-party system engineers would like nothing more than to have people identify with labels, colors and 'teams.' I have met more people who vote the way they vote out of a sense of personal identification than based on a set of true principles or morals. That couldn't be more clear than with the situation we have now that conservatives in power claim to be fiscally conservative, compassionate and looking after the 'average' American and they actively work toward the opposite every day.
Wasn't Dubya, the great outsider, supposed to go change the tone in Washington? Why does he sit idly by as his Republican brethren forward more and more devisive agenda's and rhetoric?
And don't try to cop some 'the Democrats do it just as much' crap because you know and it is easy to prove that they don't. Democrats are completely inept at operating in the current media environment and have proven themselves virtually useless as a party. You say 'liberalism is chronic guilt?' You are right to an extent...it is wanting to do the 'right thing' regardless of personal gain. Unburdened with such responsibility the Republicans (who are not conservative as much as they are opportunist) continue to make political gains. If you pay attention the 'actual' conservatives are pretty pissed off about the way the administration is handling itself, especially fiscally.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 10, 2005 - 02:35am PT
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K-Rove, the whole red/blue color scheme was set up by the media to try and upset the so called "red states", when in fact the colors should be reversed. The idea that the red states are less educated, have less health care and higher unemployment is a crock of crap. The liberal media likes to call us fly over country and has a condecending view of us. Well, thats why both Gore and Kerry lost. The center of the country is sick of it. All the sudo-intellectual liberals are soo smart, yet they can't even figure out why they lost. Then they bring on Howard Dean?!! What did Churchill say about Liberals? How stupid can they be? What the heck do think just happend last election?
You are right about conservatives being pissed off about the way the administration is run. But what free thinking individual wouldn't be. Bush is not yet the greatest president ever. But he is light years ahead of any liberal cantidate to come up against him. No one man is perfect, so we try to learn from our mistakes and go on.
I vote republican because there is not one lick of conservatism in the democrat party. Before the 1960's there was no such thing as liberalism and both parties shared the same moral ideals. Not anymore.
Liberals/Democrats are always for the little guy, right? Well the supreme court just debunked that myth. Now you can just throw your centuries old property rights out the window. A 5 to 4 decision defined by liberals on one side and the conservatives on the other.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 10, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
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No, its NOT 'always about the little guy.' The Supreme Court upheld the right of *elected officials* who are in every eay *accountable to their electorate* continue to have a police power that has been excercised since the creation of the Constitution (and well before that, the Constitution merely ensures that the government pays a fair price for the land that it takes).
Since you guys only seem to understand extreme life or death scenarios, envision this: Due to suicide bombers from Canada a wall is planned to be built to protect the American citizenry from attack. The governments along the border use their police powers to condemn private property, claim it for public good and build the wall. If this power didn't exist, any 1 private property owner could stop the construction of the wall because they didn't want to give up their property.
The issue that was taken to the Supreme Court was one in which a government took private property from some people and gave it to others to turn what it considered a 'blighted' area into one that was more economically prosperous. Is there a large chance of corruption in an exchange like that? Hell yes. Should the people of that county/city pay close attention to what is going on? Hell yes. Should the Supreme Court prevent them from excercising that power? Hell no! Isn't that what conservatives want? More *local* control? Small, well-represented governments making decisions for the good of the people in their area?
And touting Republican Presidential wins in 2000 and 2004 as great victories is pretty rediculous. Bush won by the slimmest margins in US history *both times.* How that is any way decisive only makes sense in your polarized world.
And to claim that the Red/blue map was specifically targeted at angering conservatives? Was it the shadow governemnt that did that or was it the Illuminati using their vast control of the mass media? I just want to make sure which conspiracy theory premise we are talking about here. If you actually did some research on the subject...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states
...you might see that the colors actually flip around. The prevalence of the red/blue map and the baggage that those terms now carry is because of the media frenzy surrounding the 2000 election in which your much hated Supreme Court voted in Bush as President the first time around. Damn liberal court. I tell ya.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 10, 2005 - 02:20pm PT
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Throughout history, the only advances that benefited mankind were caused by people of liberal persuasion.
Conservatism is based on selfishness. Deadbeats who are single issue voters and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes..while collecting government benefits with both hands and their mouths. Power is vested in only a handful and the dumb toadies try to live vicariously through them.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 11, 2005 - 03:55am PT
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Perhaps I should have added wink, wink, nudge, nudge when refering to the colors. However, thanks for the link, the research was interesting and I learned something. But the irony of it all amuses me.
I did not say the election was decisive, but since you brought it up... 2004 was decisive, just look at congress. If you remember back in 2000 the libs were complaining about the Electoral College. But not much of a peep in 2004 because it didn't matter. I don't live in polarized world, I call a spade a spade and I don't suck up to the party line, unlike the Howard Deaners of the world.
Your hypothetical property issue is a completely different case.
This decision is already leading to more state legislation where it should have been in the first place. Public Domain is not meant for private income generating purposes.
Any honest American KNOWS Gore lost fair and square. An honorable man would have not taken the country through all that crap. The supreme court voted 5-4. A disgustlingly narrow margin in my mind. It should have been 7-0. After all it was the super liberal judges that voted for Gore.
Maybe you are on to something with the Illuminati and shadow government. But I digress. Yes they are a damn liberal court, I agree. I don't view Rehnquist or O'Connor as conservative, only moderates, which might as well be liberal.
I just hope the Republicans grow some balls and Nuke the Dems. What a bunch of sorry losers filibustering the vote. Never before done in history. But whats worse, the Republicans allowing them to do it!
Ok Ouch, put your money where your mouth is. Why don't you give us a big list of your great liberals who have helped the world so much. Selfish? Excuse me? I make money for my family and give to charitable causes of MY choosing. I don't want my money going to the baby producing wellfare queens! They are the ones who don't pay tax!
As of 2001 the top 1% of tax payers paid 23% of all taxes, the top 5% paid 39%, the top 10% paid 50% and the bottom 20%? Well they paid a little over 1%. So quit complaining and lobby for tax reform and don't give us anymore crap about money makers (both liberal and conservative)not paying tax. What percentile do you fall in? I don't like it either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2005 - 10:11am PT
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As of 2005, I'd be willing to bet that 0% of the top 1% were among the casualties of the Iraq war. There's sacrifice and there's sacrifice.
Peace
Karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 11, 2005 - 11:53am PT
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And then there’s Scarface. We should send all of our illegal aliens to Iraq - if they aren't citizens, then it's not a casualty, right?
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Weenis
Trad climber
Shastafaria
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Jul 11, 2005 - 12:06pm PT
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Yeah, we could do something like the "Mariel Boatlift".
But we'd have to call it the "Ariel Airlift" or airdrop. Think how much money the Man could save on training and gear. Most of those folks already know the streets and weaponcraft pretty well. The money saved could be spent on useless entitlement programs.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 11, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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“Land of Entitlement" ...until the Man repos your title...
They should put that phrase on the American Flag…
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2005 - 12:48pm PT
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Minerals wrote:
"And then there’s Scarface. We should send all of our illegal aliens to Iraq - if they aren't citizens, then it's not a casualty, right?"
I wouldn't too too surprised to see that proposed as the solution to avoiding a draft. Sign up for 4 years on Military Service at one of our foreign recruiting stations, if you survive, you become a US citizen.
Something's gotta happen. only a matter of time before the recruiting falls too short for too long
Peace
Karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 11, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
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There is no doubt that the liberal agenda has done much damage to this country.
For example:
Child labor laws.
Overtime pay.
40 hour work week.
Unemployment insurance.
Workmen's compensation.
Social Security.
Minimum wage laws.
Rural electrification.
Universal public education.
Racial desegregation.
National parks and the conservation movement.
Just one horror after another.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 11, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
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As I said before, there were no liberals prior to the 1960's. So most of your list is bogus. What you libs love to forget is that the Equal Rights Act was passed by Republicans NOT Democrats. In the past Democrats were not liberal.
Social Security is about as close to liberal that you can get and it completely sucks. I want to invest my own money. Government was not created to take us from cradle to grave. However Hillary thinks so. And Ouch talks about collecting benefifs with both hands and mouth!
Teddy Rosevelt with the help of John Muir created Yosemite National Park. Neither one was ever a liberal by any stretch of the imagination! Don't confuse conservation with liberalism.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 11, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
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chefclimber, you are probably too young to remember that once upon a time there were liberal Republicans. Just because they have been purged from the party now does not mean they never existed. It was the Republican Party that started the civil rights and environmental movements. Things change over time. Read up on history. I know that knowledge is anathema to the modern day conservative, but you should give it a try.
No liberals prior to the '60s? That's funny.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 11, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
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"And Ouch talks about collecting benefifs with both hands and mouth!"
That's extremist rightwing wacko neocons feeding at the public trough and cursing the hand that feeds them.
Not surprising, you can't understand what is written.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 11, 2005 - 05:56pm PT
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"As of 2001 the top 1% of tax payers paid 23% of all taxes, the top 5% paid 39%, the top 10% paid 50% and the bottom 20%? Well they paid a little over 1%. So quit complaining and lobby for tax reform and don't give us anymore crap about money makers (both liberal and conservative)not paying tax. What percentile do you fall in? I don't like it either. "
*sigh* The top 1% also hold 38.1% of the wealth! The bottom 40% of Americans have a grand total of 0.2% of the wealth! The onl reason they pay a little over 1% of the taxes is because liberals worked very hard to make it that way. And I pay about 30% of my income in taxes every year *which I am happy to do.* That is ultimtely the difference between you and I..I understand that my taxes go to something worthwhile, like trying to educate people like you to look outside of what is being fed to you and think about what makes sense, or making sure your kids don't get sick so that my family doesn't get sick too.
Or if you want to be cynical, think about it this way. The top 10% pays taxes so that the bottom 50% will be healthy enough to work, smart enough to make the top 10% money and happy enough that they won't rise up and kill them.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 12, 2005 - 02:41am PT
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Spinmaster, the difference between you and I is that you want yourself and others to avoid personal responsibility. Look around, the public school system sucks. Why do you think that private schools, charter schools and home schooling is on the rise and has been for quite some time. Major universities are actually prefering students from these 3 picks. That tells me that our taxes are going down a rat hole. Just go to a community college and see how many students have to take remedial courses before they can even get to college level clases! But wait...public schools don't want to hurt the students self esteem by giving them an F. So now you have a bunch of young people entering the college/work force that feel good about themselves but can barely read at a 6th grade level.
So parents like my wife and I are not looking to the government to attempt to educate, or indoctrinate our children. Sure we need public schools, we need them reformed and throwing money at them does not and has not fixed the problem. So don't feed me that garbage that the government is here to save us. Its all about personal responsibility my friend and feeding at the public trough won't get us there ever.
It is the governments responsibility to keep infectious illegal aliens out of this country so "your kids don't get sick so that my family doesn't get sick too." Both parties are failing miserably with that job.
Gary your right, before the 1960's they were called communists! Let me clarify, liberalism was not mainstream and the Democrats were not defined by them.
"Knowledge is anathema to the modern day conservative"? Then why the hell don't your liberal teachers teach history without their un biased political revisionism. Many kids now days dont even know why we dropped the bomb on Japan. But I suppose you belive that we were the bad guy and murdered all those poor Japanese. Just like the terrorist slime in Gitmo are sooo poorly treated.
Ouch, I understood what you wrote: "Conservatism is based on selfishness. Deadbeats who are single issue voters and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes..while collecting government benefits with both hands and their mouths. Power is vested in only a handful and the dumb toadies try to live vicariously through them."
I dont see anything about righwing wacko neocons anywhere. Try and make some sense.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 04:02am PT
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Chef...you don't know anything about me and somehow you know less about US history. Private schools, charter schools (which are..um..public schools) and home schooling are on the rise because they are systems that allow for children to get more personal attention and for parents to choose a style and system of learning that will work more aptly for their children. Most importantly, they all have smaller class sizes which has proven time and time again to be one of the single biggest factors in school performance. I call it 'hiring more teachers' but you seem to like calling it 'throwing money at the problem.' I guess it just depends on if you want it to work or not.
Secondly, I'm self-employed (I own an internet business, I'm a DJ and I manage a real estate office) so don't tell me about personal responsibility. I don't have a retirement plan, or a health care plan or a pension. I also don't have a boss and when I do well it is because I'm doing well and I'm being supported by those around me. When I'm not it is because I'm doing something wrong. But I have the ability to do the things that I'm doing because I have a good education, a safety net that my family affords me (emotionally and financially. They don't give me money but I know that if something awful happened to me that they would be there for me) that a lot of other people do not have. I recognize that I am privileged to have these opportunities and I believe in a system that works towards providing those opportunities for others, not one in which I lord it over everyone else and beat my chest.
To lay public health concerns at the feet of illegal aliens is an argument out of the 19th century, not the 21st. My ancestors were 'dirty Italians' and 'dirty Germans' and they came from other countries and faced prejudice here in the United States before all the white people got together and just started hating on the brown people. You know the Italian slur 'wop?' That stands for 'Without Passport.' Yeah we Italians were the dirty Mexicans at some point. I guess god probably made you out of dust and clay right here in America.
And Liberalism ruled most of the 20th century. Women's liberation, voting rights, equal rights, social security, desegregation, public health, anti-trust, and the labor movement. The list goes on and on. The pendulum started to swing in the 60's with desegregation and came into full tilt as Reagan took office. The highest tax bracket in 1980 was 70%! In 1952 it was 92%!! Not the 38% that the richest pay now (when they pay taxes at all). Of course you had to be making the equivalent of many millions of $$'s per year to pay that much, and it was graduated, but still.
It was not that liberalism wasn't mainstream, it is that liberalism WAS the mainstream and so you had to be a full-blown commie to get slandered as being 'too far left.'
So don't get me wrong, personal responsibility is everything, but part of that is knowing that you are personally responsible to everyone else. The greatest things that we as a nation have done were things that we did together. You want to be an island and homeshool your kids with an incorrect history of the 20th century...that is certainly your perogative and it is nothing new. But it doesn't take a genius to see that we all are living and depend on each other in one way or another. Could the government be doing a better job? Hell yes, but don't give me that 'Government is the problem' crap. That only works in Limbaugh fantasy-land.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 12, 2005 - 01:26pm PT
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"Tail Gunner" Joe was right about the general fact, but completely wrong about the particulars.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 03:10pm PT
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All of those things are, of course, factors as well. The average US class size is 24 and if you are paying a private institution for the same teacher to student ratio I think you probably need to question what you are paying for.
The average class size at my public high school was in the low 20's. At my private high school it was 13 and it made a huge difference.
Parent involvement is of course huge, but what about parents who don't take the time to do it? Should we just write their children off? It's hard to be involved when you are working 2 low-wage jobs just to get by and have no healthcare. I get mad about parents who don't involve themselves in their kids lives enough, but you can't wack a person for not working hard enough (pull up those bootstraps!) and then wack them again when they are working so much they don't have time to teach their kids the finer points of algebra.
And 'feel good social causes' are just so much poliktical BS. Like 'activist judges.' Sure there are issues that get taken way too far like not wanting to fail kids because it might make them feel bad, but the real issue is that those kids aren't getting what they need in some respect to succeed. Beating them with a stick all the time doesn't get better results either. Last time I checked prayer in school wasn't the key to higher grades either, but you wouldn't know it to hear some people tell it. 'Feel good social programs' are just an exaggerated way of looking at the issue. It is easier to make your extreme partisan argument if you make it look more moderate by contrasting the other side look even MORE extreme. Stop buying into all that crap.
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