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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Sounds like we need to get John on the line here...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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Joe
The seller said Walt made them in college. So, they never could have been made at Middendorfs. Walt did not know John M in college.
The sellers story sounds way hokey. But ...
They could have been made by Rob and the guy though Walt made them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Thanks Werner, maybe Rob will take a look and let us know. I'm pretty confident they were Walt's regardless who made them and I would think that's enough to make them worth sending to Ken. You guys who knew him would of course be a better judge of that than me...
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Ok. Ok. Here's the "Rob" cam I have.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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Thanks Mastadon, that will probably greatly help folks who might know these sorts of things.
They certainly have a derivative appearance even with a bunch of differences like sloped vs. angled stem tapers, square vs. rounded stem base, smooth vs. grooved cam lobes, and the obvious length differences. I also notice the trigger bars on both are quite long.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Just back from an internet lapse (moved to another place outside of Hobart)...
Walt must have graduated from college around 1980? Not entirely sure of the year.
I don't think Walt made those cams. They look like some of the early cams available in Yosemite in the early 80's, perhaps HB's (Horsham Bruce from Australia)? Or Orovitz, perhaps. I had one of those .5's at one point myself. They were highly coveted prior to the arrival of 3-cam units.
I'm not 100% certain that Walt didn't make them, but it sure seems like he would have let us (folks like Werner, Russ, and me) know if he had made some cams in college. Plus since those are the same design as the ones that were noted, and remembered, as new and innovative in the early 80's, it seems pretty certain that Walt would have mentioned that he had designed the tapered shaft prior to the HB (or Orovitz) models, if he had done so.
But the clincher for me is the fact that Walt was very particular about his gear. Once, while gripped out of my gourd on our ascent of Zenyatta, I mashed into mincemeat one of his knifeblades into a shallow bottoming thin crack (before birdbeaks, you see). He was very upset about it. I personally can't imagine him parting with cams that he had actually made himself, unless it was a gift to a close friend.
Who's the guy selling them? Hy Sorens or Dave Ingersol, I would believe either of those two. Otherwise, the claim needs further proof, methinks.
Walt helped me in my A5 shop in Flagstaff in 1989, right after he had his extraordinary solo stint in Redrocks. We worked on a solo device, he helped with my portaledge corner manufacturing, he built a jig for the birdbeak, and he helped make a bunch of hammers. But not cams. (We also climbed a bunch of cool desert towers in those few months). There were plenty of great small cams available in the late 80's so it would have been pointless to make your own, and certainly not a rigid shaft model.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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God rest his soul. Walt was the man of course but even if he did make these cams WTF are they doing on Ebay? The whole thing seems cheap to me. Oooo Ooo look, I have Walts cams. BFD
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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Thanks for taking a look John. Kenny, I traded ebay messages with the seller and he seems completely authentic to me. I'll point him to this thread and maybe he would be willing to shed some more light on things. Here's his response to my first ebay message where I mention these probably belong in the YCM...
=
Dear healyje,
Joseph,
I was just telling my wife the same thing last night. I think the AAC has a museum. I didnt know they had one in the valley even though I have spent many summers there. I actually felt pretty guilty putting them on ebay but the bills are piling up.
 xxxxxxxxxx
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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I purchased a couple of cams from Rob Oravitz when he came through Boulder in about 1984 or so. They looked just like the one in Don's photo. Maybe Walt copied Rob's design as the stem in both look very similar though the length differs(well, duh).
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:23am PT
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Joseph,
The seller could certainly be honest about having bought them from Walt. If that is enough for you to be interested, that's up to you. I don't know what criteria Ken uses for gear to be interesting to the museum.
I am more interested in exactly who made or designed them, if they are well made which the ebay cams appear to be. (I'm not interested in collecting these, so I won't bid against you!)
As John explained, there were several people who made small cams in the late 80s prior to the arrival of TCUs. Various people were selling them in Camp 4. I have seen at least 6 different designs. Some were quite nicely made and others were crude (Rob Oravetz's were pretty nice).
I have seen the short shafted ones with smooth cam surfaces like Don's photo above. We used some on the Shield in 4/1987.
The Rob Oravetz cams I have used most recently are in Brian Cox's collection; I have taken them to Indian Creek a couple of times. They have longer shafts than Don's, but I will have to arrange with Brian to get photos if there is interest. As I recall, these cam surfaces were notched and similar to the ones on ebay. Brian refers to them as definitely being from Rob Oravetz.
Brian also has HB cams from that time. They have titanium (or maybe steel) shafts, which have a smaller cross section than the aluminum shaft cams on ebay.
I have a crudely made small cam which my partner bought from some Mexicans in Camp 4 in 5/1985. It was handy for the Salathe', but has been mostly retired since TCUs arrived.
There is also the Wild Country #.5 with titanium or steel shaft; I am not counting it in the 6 above.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 04:40am PT
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Clint, as a longtime stateside buyer for Stephane I was just trying to intervene to insure these don't disappear into the void without some opportunity for you folks to decide what they're about. It's certainly more for you guys and Ken to decide whether these have intrinsic value for having been associated with Walt or even possibly made by him such that you'd all like to have them returned to the Valley.
I don't really attach much in the way of any sentimentality to gear (certainly my own, anyway) but do recognize if someone doesn't collect some of this stuff we'll lose a bunch of our collective history. I certainly don't have the inclination or temperment to do it, but I'm sure glad guys like Stephane, Marty, Ken, and Gary do.
If Ken isn't interested in them, then if I got them, I'd ship them off to Stephane who is and who let me know about them in the first place (I sent him a link to this thread as well...).
[ Edit: Just sent Marty a link to the thread as well... ]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 04:48am PT
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I'm anticipating they'll likely go for substantially more than that - I'm just asking folks here to either not bid against me or let me know some other plan so I can back off. I'm just a working stiff with a family like anyone else - not made of money...
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 06:57am PT
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Joe,
i contacted seller and asked him if he had a buy now price, and if he had any proof that these were made by Walt.
he said no on the buy now price.
he also stated that he did not have any proof that these were made by Walt. he said that Walt made them at the University of Santa Barbara. He was taking engineering at the time. his roommate was Dave Ingersoll. He worked with Walt on on a few remodel jobs in Sacramento, and said that he was excellent carpenter.
Joe, i wasn't trying to be a jerk, or step on your toes when contacting seller. i have bought a ton of stuff on the Internet, and never been burned, but i ask a lot of questions from sellers, and do my research.
i also thought if i offered him enough of a buy now price, you wouldn't have to be concerned about bidding. if he accepted my offer, i would have given you the cams for the museum.
Zip
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 11:54am PT
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Those aren't the cams I was making at the time. I knew Walt pretty well back then, we hung out a bit and even did a route at the base of halfdome that I don't think was ever published. I don't recall him ever mentioning that he made cams and you'd think he would have, if you knew Walt, given mine were all over the place.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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is Dave Ingersoll still around? IF so does anyone know how to contact him? Seems like if Walt made those while he was his room mate Dave would remember(?).
interesting piece of history no matter how it plays out...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Zip, don't get me wrong, I don't care if someone else gets them and gives Ken and folks here a chance to consider them - I just don't want to run it up so high my family is then out of pocket a large sum unnecessarily. As for the part about contacting the seller, I was merely saying they seemed authentic and honest from the perspective of my ebay experience buying gear for Stephane. In fact, the seller is a good machinist himself making and selling a custom product no differently than early cam makers. I suspect he could easily have made cams back in the day as well as anyone.
I'm the first to admit I operate on gut instinct on these matters and am inclined to take people at their word, as far as the digging into the fine details of what and whom - I'm curious, but tend to leave that to Stephane and Marty given they're so good at it. So, no problem on my part, I think we're all just trying to sort this one out.
FTOR - I'm guessing you're Rob - thanks for stopping by...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Regardless, unless people from here start bidding it up, I doubt the bid will go very high on these. Less than $50, easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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I just remembered something (eureka! I have memory?).
Anyways I remember Walt having this POS looking cams like the ones being sold and they were trashed and we fixed em.
Might be these .....?
Why would anyone want to buy this sh'it is beyond me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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There you have it I suppose, I'll wait for Ken, but again, if no one from the Valley is really interested in these I'll pass them on, probably one to Stephane and one to Marty...
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Mar 18, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Leroy
I thought you were selling them in the parking lot,yes no?
81-82ish
Rich
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