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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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Clint, when does anyone refer to him as an idiot? The only word I'm hearing is 'cuñado'.
At one point, the guy who's trying to stand him up says 'Vamos, vamos, mierda!' That's not an insult to Federico - it's an expression used to encourage and support, something your belayer would yell at you while you're fighting your way through a route's crux, for example.
The wild incompetence in the video is evident and can't be debated. They are absolutely useless; it seems clear that even they knew it, which explains the general sense of fear and despair among them, the crying, the desperate call to base camp. They know they're in over their heads.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Who hasn't tried being an as#@&%e to get someone moving in serious conditions, after trying TLC and trying to reason? Sometimes it works.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
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The mounteverest.net transcript also says "cuñado." Google language tools translates this as "brother."
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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That's good to hear. I don't know a word of Spanish, so when the people posting ahead of me said idiot I assumed they heard that.
Heh heh goes to show, never assume.
Anyways, that would have been a tough mo'fuking hard rescue with what they were up against to save him.
It would have been a miracle ....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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The video is awful.
How many people have tried to carry 200 pounds of deadweight up and over the summit of a 21,000 foot peak? I've had trouble getting my healthy self back down from that elevation.
I reckon these guys--who may or may not know shite about rescue--volunteered on the fly to go up after the climber, apparently in a storm. For that they should get credit. Could they have done more or something different? Probably. Still, they were there and should get the benefit of the doubt (except for the video guy- who kicks back and rolls a camera in the middle of a tragedy?).
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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graniteclimber,
with respect, those present at the scene didn't have to rely on 'Google language tools' -- their words were as immediate to them and brother campanini as what we are typing is to us anglophiles. no?
despite my best effots, to date i've achieved no more than bad bar spanish -- i know how to ask where the men's room is and to get another beer. period. as such i am surely in no position to question anyone's translation of what said, just then, just 'there'
though i am rather confident that campanini knew exactly what his local brothers were saying; just as they knew exactly what they wanted to say.
and as only a relative few in any population are actually sociopaths, i myself suspect that his peers were as supportive as they could be.
arghh, my clan simply can't do 'terse'. my apologoes for that.
^,,^
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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"Cunado" (I can't put the "~" thing over the "N" like it's supposed to) the way I've heard it used, is something like "brother-in-law", but not related.
Not a blood-relation brother, but close.
Definitely not a derogatory term.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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I fukkin' hate modern media sometimes for what it's done to people's perception and common sense. Since when is a fukkin' video camera part of the kit for this type of operation? If it's a recovery, yer an as#@&%e. If it's a rescue, you could have brought a few more useful items instead of one that distracts from the task at hand.
You can bet you'll never catch me with a fukkin' camera when someone is in trouble. WTF?
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath,
(wow, not the most terse of handles, but being for sure not the most terse of souls, and having been out there where your handle desribes, a good handle)
re:
> How many people have tried to carry 200 pounds of deadweight
> up and over the summit of a 21,000 foot peak? I've had trouble
> getting my healthy self back down from that elevation.
amen (from the greek, via the hebrew, "i believe this is true").
exactly what i was trying to say, only it took you 400 words less. (it sucks to be irish).
> I reckon these guys--who may or may not know shite about
> rescue--volunteered on the fly to go up after the climber,
> apparently in a storm. For that they should get credit.
> Could they have done more or something different? Probably.
> Still, they were there and should get the benefit of the doubt
see "amen" - above. and i am, perchance, not a theist. but i know a good word when i see it. that and anyone who agrees with me is clearly a genius.
^,,^
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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"with respect, those present at the scene didn't have to rely on 'Google language tools' -- their words were as immediate to them and brother campanini as what we are typing is to us anglophiles. no?"
Of course, but what is your point? Not knowing Spanish, I (not them) needed the translation.
"and as only a relative few in any population are actually sociopaths, i myself suspect that his peers were as supportive as they could be."
That was sort of the point of noting that the word they used meant (according to Google langague tools) "brother" (and not "idiot" as I first understood it to mean.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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This rescue, unfortunately, is reminiscent of one I witnessed on Aconcagua in 1996.
Asleep at Camp Nido (17,500') on the regular route, we were awakened by some really loud people making camp right next to us. Camp Nido is about the size of a football field, and there were very few people there, so we thought it was a little odd. These same intruders loudly broke camp just four hours after they arrived, which also seemed odd. The next morning we got up to find their beat to crap tent still there. We proceeded to move up to Camp Berlin (19,500') in time to see what turned out to be our neighbors from the night before, who turned out to be the local rescue service, rangers of some sort, dragging some poor dude, whose head got smacked by a rock in the Canaleta, down the mountain.
There were six rescuers taking turns carrying or dragging him, two at a time, one under each arm. The victim had what appeared to be a serious head injury with blood all over the left side of his head and face. When rescuers changed places, and the guy was kind of propped up for the switch, his left shoulder appeared to be disfigured and sagging. The victim was semi-conscious, seemingly A&OX0, with his head lolling from side to side.
There was no sign of a litter and seemingly no recognition of the possibility of a spinal injury. The rescue team was serious, energetic, committed, but apparently had no medical training whatsover. We didn't speak Spanish and the rescuers didn't speak English, and also they didn't seem much interested in help, waving us off and giving us the impression that this was offical business.
When we got back down to base camp a few days later we asked around and were told they packed the guy out sitting but slumped over on a horse.
In the video posted above, not to take away from the Herculean effort required to get that guy up from the Polich glacier route, across the crest ridge, and down the Canaleta, but if they are going to put all that effort into rescuing people you'd think they'd put some effort into learning how to keep 'em alive.
I can't remember how many permits they issue for Aconcagua each year, but I think it was over a thousand the year we were there. With all those people you'd think they'd stash a litter in the rocks somwhere near Camp Berlin.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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If they were planning for a "recovery" of a dead body and Campanini couldn't walk, why didn't they just haul him out like they planned to, rather then cutting him loose and leaving him to die in the snow?
Or does "recovery" here mean burying the deceased in a crevasse and moving on?
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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graniteclimber,
we are of one mind on this.
i myself called a friend (an argentinean born to that mighty tongue) and asked for her transaltion.
no disrespect intended, i myself rely on google language tools almost daily. and without the help of my argentinean pal, that is where i would have gone.
even with the help of said pal i still can't be sure i know what is going on in the video. (she said 'i can't quite make out all of what they are saying, the audio sucks')
i agree with everything you have written so far on this thread.
^,,^
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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Taken from a Chilean andinista forum, this account was given by a guide from Bariloche. If you can understand a bit of Spanish, it clarifies quite a bit of misconception:
"
Re: Video sobre rescate y muerte en Aconcagua
Nota por droz el 17 Feb 2009 20:09
A ver vamos por partes…
1. Por que se filmo el rescate?
Porque hay una resolución que obliga a filmar todos los rescates en la montaña, no fue por morbo de los rescatistas ni para subirlo a YouTube como dijo alguien, es para tener como prueba legal.
2. Era todos rescatistas?
No, en la patrulla había dos o tres “rescatistas” el resto eran guías (Que dejaron sus propias expediciones) y porteadores que se sin dudarlo se ofrecieron para el rescate y que salvaron a tres de los italianos de la expedición de Campaniani.
3. Por que querían subir para sacar al herido?
Subían para poder bajar por una ruta más sencilla. Estaban en el glaciar de los polacos desde donde era imposible bajar en el estado en que estaban, con ese clima y cargando a un herido.
4. Por que no llevaban elementos de rescate (camilla, etc)?
Porque no eran los rescatistas, la patrulla de rescate no pudo salir de Plaza de Mulas por mal tiempo. Los que fueron, fueron con lo “puesto” desde los campamentos superiores.
Salieron a altas horas de la tarde, caminando de noche, haciendo cumbre de noche, con tormenta y con poco o nada de material para rescate. Así y todo rescataron con vida a tres de los andinistas y encontraron al guía. En serio creen que les pueden pedir o recriminar a los “andinistas” que luego de mas de 24 Hs de rescate, con un clima implacable y a mas de 6000 metros no hayan subido a la cumbre y vuelto a bajar en medio de la tormenta cargando una persona de 80 Kg que les guste o no ya no tenia posibilidades de sobrevivir?
5. Por que no hicieron una camilla de cuerdas?
Les pregunto. Alguien cargo entre cuatro una camilla con una persona arriba por más de 300 metros en lo plano? Les puedo asegurar que a los 100 metros ya están con la lengua afuera.
Ahora, hacer una camilla de cuerdas en la cima del Aconcagua, en medio de una tormenta, con temperaturas inferiores a -20º C, luego de hacer cumbre DE NOCHE, de rescatar CON VIDA a tres personas y de 24 Hs sin descansar para cargar entre un puñado de hombres un cuerpo de 80 Kg cuando se estaba haciendo de noche…hace falta que siga?
6. Por que lo insultan y lo arrastran en el video?
Partamos de la base que no se puede sacar una conclusión de un rescate que duro mas de 24 Hs con un video de 1.45 minutos. El video es MUY DURO pero yo veo palabras de aliento, de desesperación… de IMPOTENCIA por saber que no podían hacer nada en esas condiciones. Que es lo que querían ver en esas circunstancias? Lo de cargarse al herido en los hombros y bajarlo de la montaña en remera y sin un rasguño solo pasa en HOLLYWOOD.
Lamentablemente lo que se va a conseguir con esto es que la próxima vez que haya un accidente nadie se ofrezca de voluntario para el rescate por temor a que algún abogado o juez con sed de fama les arruine la vida.
Para terminar cito al rescatista que filmo el video:
"que dios nos ilumine y le de fuerzas por favor"
Diego."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Another thing I though strange about the video was the apparent lack of medical knowledge for a 'rescue team', or even climbers.
This guy apparently took a fall (the rescuers may not have known that), and the first thing to do after stabilizing a person is NOT move them until you assess that there are no spinal/neck injuries.
The one guy helping him is pulling up under the slumping patients arms, yanking him. That could exacerbate injuries.
That seemed strange to me. Maybe they were trying to motivate him to get going but he could have had nasty injuries.
Maybe they assessed him prior to rolling the camera, I just found that weird.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Don't have time to do more, but a brief paraphrase of the six points listed above from the Chilean site:
1. Why was the rescue filmed?
Argentine law requires it.
2. Was everyone in the video professional sar?
No, only two or three. The rest, as somebody guessed above, were guides or porters who volunteered, and who found and saved three lost members of the deceased guide's Italian party.
3. Why were they trying to go uphill?
To access an easier descent route. The were on the Polish glacier, too technical to descend in those conditions and given their abilities, and carrying Federico.
4. Why weren't they carrying rescue equipment?
They weren't sar. The true sar group couldn't leave Plaza de Mulas basecamp b/c of the wx. The people in the video are those who volunteered and blasted out of their own advance camps with whatever they had on.
They left very late in the afternoon/evening, climbed/summited after nightfall, in the midst of a storm and with no rescue material. Even in these conditions they managed to rescue three of the Italian team and find Federico, the guide. 24 hrs, horrible wx, all of it over 6k meters, after summiting and descending 400m down the Polish route.
5. Why didn't they improvise a way to carry him with the rope.
At that alt, under those conditions (-20 C, storm, no viz), after summiting that night and already saving three of the Italian party, and as dog tired as they were - wasn't going to happen.
6. Why do they insult and drag him in the video?
Not insults, words of encouragement, desperation, helplessness. They knew they couldn't save Federico. The idea of a group like theirs carrying an injured or sick person out in this circumstance were slim - maybe in Hollywood.
What many are pissed about on the Chilean boards is that, in spite of a $500/person permit fee to climb Aconcagua, nothing better could be conjured up when it counted.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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I don't know anything about mountaineering so I have a few questions...
Is it true that being rescued from that high is almost impossible? Is it true that anyone trying to rescue others from such a mountain is doing it at a very great risk to their own lives?
Plus, I thought that when you are in high altitude it effects your motor skills and the ability to think, solve problems... Could the fact that they are over 21,000 feet explain their confusion and fear?
The video is horrific. I feel for all of them...
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 18, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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le_bruce,
thank you for all of that excellent and useful info (points 1 through 6, above). info i couldn't guess at from here on my couch (well, on the floor at a cheezy motel - same functional differnce).
answers a lot of questions, and renews my belief that pretty much all souls do their very best in such situations.
thanks much,
^,,^
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Feb 18, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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Yep, thanks le_bruce,
Who could imagine that the only thing that appears to be regulated would be the need to videotape. That's some counterproductive reactionary nonsense if I've ever heard it. Let's tie up one of the team members on every rescue with a completely irrelevant task. Genius.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Feb 18, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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hey there all... say, my condolences to the family....
also:
i was wondering about the same things as anastasia, as to these dangers...
then, next, also--i really think werner had a lot to say about your clothes freezing on you, and there is nothing much you can do (werners quote):
" By the time you get there your wet and sweating and start to freeze. You can't change into dry clothes in conditions like that, I've tried."
-----
well:
i have heard this being the case, and not just one for unprepared rescues of men (sure hope this will help someone, in the longrun:
*many a hunter has died, trying to "rescue = drag" his deer home, only to sweat under his "ill prepared clothes" as to not haveing the foresite, or proper "gear" to haul the deer back:
thus they have froze to death, though they had what had been "previously WARM" clothes... and, in many times within just a few miles of their warm truck, and/or others that could have helped.... the thought was always, that they could do it, strength wise, etc.... as most likely on non-snow hunts, they had...
very sad when equipment, gear, or whether accidently, or non-foresite wise, has been there....
well, as to the video:
it would make me cry, to see the video, even as i've cried for families losing folks so near to help, but facing failure, so i just could not go see it...
but, yes, i do know that folks really DO need to warn others--i can understand the mountaineering news to show this sorrow to help others... but it is too hard for me to understand the need for the video zeroing in on the unfortunate man, that will never be here, again...
once again, condolences to the father and others...
edit: thank you le-bruce for the info about those that tried so hard to save someone... very sad for all...
edit: le_bruce... now i understand as to the video need, if it was there law... this way, it would show exactly what happened, if those who were not there needed to question something...
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