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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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Diagnostics
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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In the words of your quite unmissed ex-vice president, perhaps it's an unknown unknown.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Once thought of myself as Agnostic, but now I am more comfortable with Atheist. Just biding my time for the final dirt nap….
Prod.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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What Prod said.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 29, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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"Just finished an interesting book "God's Problem." The book asks the question: If God is all powerful, and God is all loving, why is there suffering in the world?
I have not heard a good explanation for that question.
Makes one at least question the existences of a God?"
The question seems to rest on a pretty big assumption, that suffering doesn't have it's place in the order of things that most don't understand.
After all, we go climbing and climbing is loaded with suffering.
and if you have kids, they believe you inflict all kinds of suffering on them.
Not to speak of the possibility of Karma making us our own judge and punishment dispenser.
Peace
Karl
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Jan 29, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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Everyone is an agnostic in terms of the belief in an afterlife and a judgmental God. Anyone who fully and completely bought into the idea that they would suffer eternally for sins committed in this short life would not sin. It would be an absurd trade off. Yet everyone sins, even those who hypocritically claim to be true believers.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 29, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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Agnostics are wussies...can't commit either way. Sorta like saying "I'm sorta gay...". C'mon, take the plunge and join us Atheists!! Membership is growing, there's only a few spots open! Don't delay...call now with your credit card ready, operators are standing by:
1-800-NO-GODS
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Dick is hittin' the horse again.
HARD!
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Fletcher
Trad climber
the campfire just a ways past Chris' Taco stand
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Skipt beat me to it: the book of Job posed the question many moons ago.
Fletch
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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I'm 1B. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I've learned enough about religions to realize that many of them are a scam.
"Belive in what we tell you OR ELSE!" Screams B.S. to me.
But you can't prove or disprove it one way or the other. I like a little mystery anyway.
I'd rather focus on the incredible miracles of existence that surround us everyday: a beautiful planet with just the right conditions for intelligent life to develop, love, family & friends, the amazing things that humanity has accomplished, climbing, etc.
We'll all find out when we die. Or we won't.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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Gnosis is wisdom and knowledge. Being Agnostic is to not have or seek these attributes.
Karl asks why is their suffering in the world? There is a seen and unseen war between good and evil. Believe it. As a antique dealer I have traveled this world for many years now. I have seen and sensed things so dark I had to flee, and been in the presence of light so strong that .... scoff if you may, but know that this life is YOUR TEST. You choose the path you will walk, and you choose whether you walk with the dark side or seek wisdom and all things good. You have been given life, treasure it and use it for good and to benefit ALL creatures less then you. Or be prepared to answer when you stand before your Creator as to why you did not and therefore why it is you should be allowed to continue to exist...
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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"Gnosis is wisdom and knowledge. Being Agnostic is to not have or seek these attributes."
Scoff, scoff!
Prod.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
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Lynne said, """"Say Rudder, Never heard of yo here on the forum before. But no matter. Please write a definition of agnostic so we will all be on the same page... Gratzi, Lynne """"
Yup, just got on here recently. :)
Pascal was right about us not being able to understand God in the least. But beyond that fell flat. For instance he thought that the religion to wager on was Christianity. Now I wouldn't mind wagering on the (anyone here who is so righteous to have sinned not once in his life; you have my blessing to stone the sinful women to death) Christ. But, there is unfortunately Leviticus, Hosea, Job, Genesis, et al. And, more unfortunately Christ referred to those scrolls as sacred.
Agnostics and even Pascal refer to the existence of God as unknowable. I go a step further. I don't say it's all unknowable, I say I know that it's not anything that's been put on the table so far. If we were told today, we'd all be surprised. As for all the "believers" out there, I'm okay with that as long as they quit being so passionate that they need to kill or destroy people's lives. Other than that I contend, "One superstition is as good as another."
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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"Gnosis is wisdom and knowledge. Being Agnostic is to not have or seek these attributes."
Funny, I feel the opposite. But it doesn't suprise me that people with rigid ideology think this way.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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"Just finished an interesting book "God's Problem." The book asks the question: If God is all powerful, and God is all loving, why is there suffering in the world?"
The true Gnostics thought they figured it all out: the god of Abraham was not the real god, but just a petty, jealous middle-management a-hole who was temporarily screwing things up, until the real god comes and cleans up the mess. This was their version of the ultimate salvation of the cosmos story. Orthodox early Christians translated that theme into the personal messiah story. But the Gnostic Jesus was a chick named Sophia. It's all very simple:
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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Agnostics are atheists that are scared to be wrong.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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Word History:
An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning "without, not," as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnōsis, "knowledge," which was used by early Christian writers to mean "higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things"; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as "Gnostics" a group of his fellow intellectuals—"ists," as he called them—who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a "man without a rag of a label to cover himself with," Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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I like Alan Watt's answer:
If you believe in God, I don't. If you don't, I do.
and Also Joseph Campbell's:
"When people think that they, or their guru, have The Truth--'This is it!'--they are what Nietzsche calls 'epileptics of the concept': people who have gotten an idea that's driven them crazy. Thinking you've got the truth is a form of madness...."
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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cintune wrote: """The true Gnostics thought they figured it all out: the god of Abraham was not the real god, but just a petty, jealous middle-management a-hole who was temporarily screwing things up, until the real god comes and cleans up the mess. This was their version of the ultimate salvation of the cosmos story. Orthodox early Christians translated that theme into the personal messiah story. But the Gnostic Jesus was a chick named Sophia. It's all very simple: """"
lol That's great, and that's the kinda thinking the Bible will lead you to if you're trying to somehow make the Bible all work out. That's the problem with Christianity... you read the gospels and you want to sign up. But, then you have to deal with the rest of the Bible. The best way to stay Christian; don't read anything and just go with your feelings. ;) That's fine, but again, stop killing people in the name of God and otherwise destroying people's lives. Then I'm just as okay with you as I am anyone else believing in any... superstition. ;)
Even though it is mentioned in the back of most Bibles, people don't seem to understand that the Bible books are anonymous writings from antiquity. Mostly written by Jews saying that the one true God likes Jews; hates everyone else. Hmmmm... ;)
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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rectorsquid wrote: """" Agnostics are atheists that are scared to be wrong. """"
That might describe me, as I hate to say or think anything that is not actually true; fact based. But, I often think there is some kind of Creator, just not one that we know anything about, maybe. lol
I'm still sentimental about the idea of God.
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