Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
|
Spending, yeah, maybe, but gov't spending? It's always more costly that letting the private sector do the DIRECT spending.
Also a lot of the gov't spending keeps already employed people busy, it doesn't create many new jobs immediately. It also bloats a huge gov't.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
|
Apogee,
One idea being tossed around out there by rational people who want to see the economy recover is to set up a tax incentive, maybe a deduction or rebate for anyone who makes a down payment of more than say 7 or 8% on a home purchase.
And as far as me being unconstructive in my criticism, did you spend some quality time with that spreadsheet I linked?? Nah, I didn't think so...
If you can read that and not be appalled then we just won't see eye to eye on this one. But I will not hurl insults your way, because dialog and disagreement fuel the democratic process.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
|
One idea being tossed around out there by rational people who want to see the economy recover is to set up a tax incentive, maybe a deduction or rebate for anyone who makes a down payment of more than say 7 or 8% on a home purchase.
I can afford about 10-12, but traditionally you should only pull the trigger with 20%. If there were a tax rebate/incentive, I could finally get into a house that I could actually make the payments on (without defaulting).
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
|
It is worth remembering, you right-leaning anti-Obama types, that within this stimulus package lies ~$1.5 B for the NPS, $700 M for the USFS, and $325 M for the BLM- if you study where that money is intended to go, you will find much of it goes towards fixing dealing with the deteriorating conditions at many of the places you love to climb, hike, paddle & ski at- the same deteriorating places you have complained about so bitterly here on ST.
Ksolem: "One idea being tossed around..."
That's a useful contribution, in my book (seriously), and one I can get behind. Got any more?
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
|
Apogee,
When did you ever ever see me complain about the NPS or BLM being underfunded. The NPS developement of Joshua Tree for example has been more bad than good. They need less money, not more. 1.7 billion in new spending for NPS?? This is money in addition to their current budget, you know.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
|
More spending in Health Care IT. That should be the main focus of the stimulus package.
Disclaimer:
I'm in Health Care IT.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
|
Bluering spews:"Would you rather have the gov't spend your tax money or spend it yourself, in a manner you see fit? Which one would 'stimulate' the economy more?"
Well, as it turns out, there is actual DATA on which stimulates the economy more and it is govt spending, not tax cuts. So, Ringsting is WRONG. Shocking, I know. Especially given Ringsting's record of being all wrong, all the time.
But Ringsting, don't take my word for it...maybe McCain's economic advisor's data is more convincing. Here's what Mark Zandi of Moody's shows.
Figures are: One-year $ change in real GDP per $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase in spending.
1. Tax Cuts/Rebates:
Nonrefundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.02
Refundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.26
Payroll Tax Holiday 1.29
Across the Board Tax Cut 1.03
Accelerated Depreciation 0.27
Extend Alternative Minimum Tax Patch 0.48
Make Bush Income Tax Cuts Permanent 0.29
Make Dividend and Capital Gains Tax Cuts Permanent 0.37
Cut Corporate Tax Rate 0.30
2. Spending Increases
Extend Unemployment Insurance Benefits 1.64
Temporarily Increase Food Stamps 1.73
Issue General Aid to State Governments 1.36
Increase Infrastructure Spending 1.59
As you can clearly see, even the least effective stimulus spending are more effective than the best of the tax cuts/rebates.
Linky for your pleasure (page 3): http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Small%20Business_7_24_08.pdf
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
|
Ksolem- that is a topic for a different thread, and it sounds as though we would have differing views there, too. However, I would imagine that we would probably agree that many land managers direct their time and energies towards priorities that make little sense to us, and that there are also many other aspects that have been long neglected that directly affect our experience that need attention, and therefore, $.
|
|
just passing thru
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
|
The Case for Doing Nothing
“Most of Washington has reached quick consensus: Government must do something big to shock the economy, and it should cost between $800 billion and $900 billion.
But dissident economists and investment professionals offer a much different take:
Most of Washington is dead wrong.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18068.html
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
|
My treatise on this package:
Tax rebates are a fruitless way to stimulate the economy- as learned in GWB's efforts, much of this money is pocketed or sent to the pay off debt of one kind or another. Not much bang for the buck, there.
Tax cuts make a bit more sense, but only if the majority are oriented towards the masses (rather than the upper income earners), and are relative to the amount that was paid in. Tax benefits for small business makes good sense, too, since cumulatively, they have a huge economic impact.
Mortgage relief for those who really need it (and deserve it) makes good sense. Not sure about how one would differentiate between those who deserve and those who do not, but there are probably far more of the former than the latter. In any case, infusing the cash into the banks is pointless (as has been recently demonstrated).
Spending on various projects makes sense, but this is where things get fuzzy- one person's pork is another person's mainstay. What is needed is better oversight to how these funds are spent, and accountability to those who abuse it.
Oversight & accountability is what this comes down to, I guess, something that is in short supply in government these days.
Edit: Other priorities that should be present:
*Healthcare reform
*Alternative energy infrastructure
|
|
just passing thru
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
|
Economic Stimulus? Feds Want your Medical Records
“A little-discussed provision in President Obama's economic stimulus plan would demand that every American submit to a government program for electronic medical records without a choice to opt out, and it has privacy advocates more than a little alarmed.
Electronic database to include lawsuit, mental health, abortion, sexual details
Sue A. Blevins, president of the Institute for Health Freedom, said "President Obama has pledged to advance freedom, Therefore the freedom to choose not to participate in a national electronic health-records system must be upheld."
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87322
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
|
Yes, the Bush government would have simply taken the information it wanted, without telling anyone, and without legal authority, and to hell with privacy and rights. No law, no warrant, all purported "national security". It's clearly necessary to have unaccountable access to all American's library borrowing records, in case they're reading things they shouldn't. To hell with the Bill of Rights.
How astonishing that your new government should actually tell people before acquiring information about them, even for what appears good reasons. I suppose that next Obama will claim that he's subject to the constitution.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
|
This just in: The House has passed the $819 B stimulus package.
|
|
just passing thru
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
|
This just in, the GOP rejected the plan.
244-188
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:50pm PT
|
Highlights from the bill just passed:
Aid to the poor and unemployed
$43 billion to provide extended unemployment benefits through Dec. 31, increase them by $25 a week and provide job training
$20 billion to increase food stamp benefits by 13 percent
$4 billion to provide a one-time additional Supplemental Security Income payment
$2.5 billion in temporary welfare payments
$1 billion for home heating subsidies
$1 billion for community action agencies.
Health care
$40 billion to subsidize health care insurance for the unemployed under the COBRA program or provide health care through Medicaid
$87 billion to help states with Medicaid
$20 billion to modernize health information technology systems
$4 billion for preventative care
$1.5 billion for community health centers
$420 million to combat avian flu
$335 million for programs that combat AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases and tuberculosis
Infrastructure
$43 billion for transportation projects, including $30 billion for highway and bridge construction and repair and $12 billion for mass transit, including $6 billion to buy transit equipment like buses
$31 billion to build and repair federal buildings and other public infrastructure
$19 billion in water projects
$10 billion in rail and mass transit projects
Education
$41 billion in grants to local school districts
$79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cuts in state aid
$21 billion for school modernization
$16 billion to boost the maximum Pell Grant by $500 to $5,350
$2 billion for Head Start
Energy
$32 billion to fund a so-called "smart electricity grid" to reduce waste
$6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes
Science and technology
$10 billion for science facilities
$6 billion to bring high-speed Internet access to rural and underserved areas
$1 billion for the 2010 Census
Housing
$13 billion to repair and make more energy-efficient public housing projects, allow communities to buy and repair foreclosed homes, and help the homeless.
Environment
$3.2 billion to clean up Superfund and waste sites, leaking underground storage tanks, nuclear sites and military bases
$400 million for habitat restoration projects
$850 million to prevent forest fires.
Law enforcement
$4 billion in grants to state and local law enforcement to hire officers and purchase equipment
Tax Cuts For Individuals
$500 per-worker, $1,000 per-couple tax cut for two years, costing about $145 billion. Workers could expect to see about $20 a week less withheld from their paychecks starting in June. Millions of Americans who don't make enough money to pay federal income taxes could file returns next year and receive checks
Greater access to the $1,000 per-child tax credit for the working poor in 2009 and 2010, at a cost of $18.3 billion. Under current law, workers must make at least $8,500 to receive the credit. The change eliminates the floor, meaning more workers who pay no federal income taxes could receive checks
Increase the earned-income tax credit — which provides money to the working poor — for families with at least three children, at a cost of $4.7 billion
Provide a $2,500 tax credit for college tuition and related expenses for 2009 and 2010, at a cost of $10.3 billion. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $160,000
Repeal a requirement that a $7,500 first-time homebuyer tax credit be paid back over time for homes purchased from Jan. 1 to July 1, unless the home is sold within three years, at a cost of $2.6 billion. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $150,000
Tax Cuts For Businesses
Extend a provision allowing businesses buying equipment such as computers to speed up the depreciation of that equipment through 2009, at a cost of $5 billion
Provide an infusion of cash into money-losing companies by allowing them to claim tax credits on past profits dating back five years instead of two, at a cost of $15 billion
Repeal a Treasury provision that allowed firms that buy money-losing banks to use more of the losses as tax credits to offset the profits of the merged banks for tax purposes. The change would increase taxes on the merged banks by $7 billion over 10 years
Subsidize locally issued bonds for school construction, teacher training, economic development and infrastructure improvements, at a cost of $35.5 billion
Extend tax credits for renewable energy production, at a cost of $13 billion
Extend and increase tax credits to homeowners who make their homes more energy efficient, at a cost of $4.3 billion. Homeowners could receive tax credits of up to $1,500 for upgrading furnaces and hot water heaters and making other improvements through 2010
**
I'm sure there's some pork in there somewhere, and oversight of these expenditures will make all the difference, but at least in theory, an awful lot of this stuff looks pretty good to me...
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
|
I'm sure there's some pork in there somewhere,
You mean like in a hog?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
|
What shall we do with the 188 GOP foot-draggers? After all, the only reason they banded together on this is because their own pet-pork-projects weren't in the bill, and because there weren't enough tax breaks for the upper 2% income earners that put them in office in the first place.
Think these guys are acting in your best interest? Think again.
You're either with us, or against us. (Remember that phrase?)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!