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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Woah - that video is scary!
Just FYI for folks that climb old Urioste routes in Red Rocks - the one bolt in the video that they pull with a few tugs of the hammer is pretty typical for the weaker 1/4" Urioste bolts (which were 1/4" wedge-studs) - except the bolt breaks at or near the rock surface (only very rarely were we able to remove the original bolt). Usually it takes a bit more effort to snap them, but maybe 1 in 10 breaks with even less effort than that video. I don't even bring a funkness anymore, since you can just take a small wrench and tighten the nut, and the bolt snaps.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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"The guys who placed the bolts knew they were crap and it appears might have been warned not to use them at this location."
Whoa, if that's the case, they'd have a real chance at a criminal manslaughter case in the U.S., not to mention a civil suit.
Edit: consider the death of Pete Absolon. Some idiots trundled a rock, knowing that a rock could kill somebody, but not knowing somebody was there. The case was considered for manslaughter, from what I understand.
Now consider placing a bolt knowing it could kill somebody AND knowing somebody is likely to fall on it.
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jstan
climber
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Just about everything you buy at Home Depot that might be used for climbing has a warning on it that it "is not to be used as personal safety equipment."
Those of you who work in reasonably sized corporations know that when you go to staff meetings as much as half the meeting may be taken up with safety, injury, and lost time reports. All of this is new and has been building over the last ten or fifteen years, driven I expect by litigation. Some companies that used to sell climbing equipment have gotten out of the business. The risks were simply not justified.
Whereas it used to be OK to just go out and provide/use safety equipment without knowing anything about it or how good it is, this is no longer the case.
We are in a new environment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"Greg, from what it sounds like to me, is the equipper didn't have the right sized bit for the bolts they were using."
I don't see how it could be anything else.
These wedge (or whatever) type bolts are one way in the correct hole. If you don't pre-verify your hole depth and it's not deep enough, you've just made a mess. Nut torque is less relevent. That rock would have to be softer than sh#t to allow one of these types of bolts to pull under 100lbs or so.
You have to know wtf you are doing. What gear you choose and how you install it follows from that.
Yeah, the guy should be charged. But this isn't the US.
EDIT:
From the blogs:
"At the end of the video it shows a 8.5mm then 9mm drill bit being into a bolt hole."
Looks to me like an 8.5mm bit was used for 8mm bolts. After seeing how the 2 bits fit in the hole in the video, realizing a bolt was just pulled out of the hole, that's pretty much that, IMO.
I also got the impression from reading the bolter's response - is that he's really stupid and had no clue as to what was going on. Heads up on soft stone right after a 2 day rain storm and can't figure out why all his bolts are spinners - figured it was the rain or something - and leaves them all there for the next party.
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Elm
Social climber
Bosnia
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It looks like the guys, the equipers, might have been so driven to finish their project (climb new route on every continent by 2007) that it has clouded their better judgment. The route in question was bolted in December 2007, they were a long way from home and they might have had a flight to catch... They both seem to be very experienced climbers, who have opened many new routes.
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Mondo
Trad climber
Craig Colorado
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Feb 18, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Not interested in starting a debate on ethics. If you chose to bolt a section to link a free climb, so be it. At belay points in the rock described consider drilling two 3/8" holes and pounding in a 1/2" angle pin into them. Make the holes just deep enough to hold the pins. If you capture the sand from the holes while drilling and mix with glue to be put back into the holes before inserting the pins all the better to keep water out that could freeze. If you drill you might as well do it this way at the belays. It's your life. ETHICS!!! Maybe good belay points should be considered ethical. It's your's and your partners life.
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