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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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Skip, glad you found it ironic and funny (as did I), but it's THAT irony that makes the prison wrong in the first place.
I'm reading all of the "arguments" here, and none deal with the real issue: If GITMO is so "necessary" for the US to combat terrorism, and supported by the American voting public, then WHY is it located there?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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"As soon as people touch American soil they are automatically given rights that make it necessary to supply information pertaining to their detention that we do not want given to our enemies."
That is the reason given why Gitmo was used. But the Supreme Court ruled that Gitmo IS American soil for purposes of determining the prisoners rights. (Gitmo is under American jurisdiction.) The prisoners have the same rights that they'd have if they were being held in Nebraska or New York. The closure of Gitmo is only symbolic.
The prisoners they want to keep will be shipped somewhere else. The ones who are released are mostly people who should have been released a long time ago.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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This was just posted to the front page of the Washington Post Web site.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html?hpid=topnews
Detainee Tortured, Says U.S. Official
Trial Overseer Cites 'Abusive' Methods Against 9/11 Suspect
By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 14, 2009; Page A01
The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."
"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.
Crawford, a retired judge who served as general counsel for the Army during the Reagan administration and as Pentagon inspector general when Dick Cheney was secretary of defense, is the first senior Bush administration official responsible for reviewing practices at Guantanamo to publicly state that a detainee was tortured.
And
FBI "clean teams," which gather evidence without using information gained during controversial interrogations, have established that Qahtani intended to join the 2001 hijackers. Mohamed Atta, the plot's leader, who died steering American Airlines Flight 11 into the World Trade Center, went to the Orlando airport to meet Qahtani on Aug. 4, 2001, but the young Saudi was denied entry by a suspicious immigration inspector.
"There's no doubt in my mind he would've been on one of those planes had he gained access to the country in August 2001," Crawford said of Qahtani, who remains detained at Guantanamo. "He's a muscle hijacker. . . . He's a very dangerous man. What do you do with him now if you don't charge him and try him? I would be hesitant to say, 'Let him go.' "
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 14, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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"I ask you this. Why did Obama himself say that this is a difficult issue and most likely won't be closed during the first hundred days."
There are prisoners that we want to release but not accept into the U.S. The problem is, most other countries don't want them either. No one wants to take a chance that a terrorist is slipping through.
Then there are the prisoners who we don't want to release. We need to find somewhere else to put them. The facilities at Gitmo were specially built and we'll need to build something similar somewhere else, probably on some military base here in the U.S.
People like Qahtani are a real problem. See the second part of my last post - he may have been tortured, but they're sure he was a terrorist. Because he was tortured it is much harder to put him on trial. But they don't want to release him either.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 14, 2009 - 10:52am PT
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Where's Obama say he's going to put these guys?
Or is this another of Obama's Burn-Down-The-Shithouse-Before-We-Install-Indoor-Plumbing schemes?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 14, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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Do a news search....Bush has already twice asked Australia to accept some for repatriation. They considered and then declined. Britain declined as well.
Don't blame Obama - before he even gets in office - for having to clean up the sh#t of the Bush admin.
I guess the Bushies never considered these people would eventually (have to) be released.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 14, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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So I see we know where these Gitmo guys aren't going.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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I brought this point up, because Obama said during his campaign that he would shut Gitmo prison down. If he does, isn’t that an admission that the prisoners being held was an illegal act and that someone in the Bush administration should be held accountable, including Bush himself?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 14, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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If they are prisoners of war, wouldn't it be normal to hold them until the war was over?
Did Vietnam let McCain out early for good behavior?
Or try him?
I say hold them all until Obama, or some successor, ends the war.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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That's an idea.
Hold them until Obama declares "Mission Accomplished".
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apogee
climber
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Jan 15, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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As the movement towards closing GTMO continues, there is continued talk about what to do with the detainees. One of the ideas that is being floated is placing a bunch of them at USMC Camp Pendleton, near San Diego. As one might imagine, there is are immediate NIMBY reactions to this, ironically from Congressman Duncan Hunter (R), a strong supporter of GWB, and likely supporter of GTMO.
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Hunter-No-Gitmo-Detainees-to-Pendleton.html
It's all good till it winds up in your backyard, eh?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 15, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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There's not a good solution for any of this now.
I don't think it is really in line with the values of this country to hold anyone, arch-terrorist or otherwise, indefinitely without some kind of trial. Even the Nazi kingpins responsible for millions of deaths got a trial. I'm not sure US criminal courts are the place to do it, but we should do something.
The other problem, is there was a reasonable number of low level yahoos that we probably could have done something with, had we done it promptly. Now that they've been sitting in Gitmo for 5+ years, it's no wonder they would be pissed at the US and more of a threat. That's probably the biggest screwup of the whole thing.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 15, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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"You break it, you bought it, baby!"
Colin Powell
(Or words to that effect...)
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Manjusri
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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This American Life did a great show about this a few years ago: Habeas Schmabeas 2007. It's a well presented explanation of the problem with Guantanamo.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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It's interesting how many of you would rather see Gitmo closed and the prisoners sent back to their home countries to be tortured and/or executed. I guess they'd at least be free or have you even thought this part through?
Where should they be sent if their home countries don't want them back? Back to the battlefield to face the fire? That would be a more honorable death for these misguided warriors. It would be irresponsible for us to simply free them to kill again.
Why can't we all just get along?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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They may be tortured or executed if we send them home?
That's the best reason I've heard so far for sending these ass-holes back where they came from.
Maybe Obama's on to something,
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 08:27am PT
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The "problem" with Gitmo is that the U.S. is not only engaging in torture (which is illegal) but also holding these men without a trial.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 09:07am PT
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^^^laughing!!!
Yea, strange logic.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:41am PT
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Gimme a break. That's not what I wrote. You really think that everyday these guys are there, they're getting tortured? That's about right for your rich logic. We'll see what your newly elected and appointed wise men come up with as a solution to this very complex problem.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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And Sleep Deprivation Sat., with Suicide Sunday open to all that wish to attend.
I believe two suicides so far but with the antics of Torture Tuesday as described by Judge Susan J Crawford recently. It is open to debate as to whether those deaths were due to suicide.
And perhaps Mimi, they all head down to the lovely Caribbean beaches each other day?
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