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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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This is about the time I bail out of these threads philo (when information starts getting repeated). Refer back to stevep post on the first page for what my response to your above post would be.
Also I have studied the existing Palestinian state, pre and post establishment of the Jewish State. I know quite well who the Palestians were helping during WW2.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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If I was in a location as oppressed as the Gaza strip is today, your damn right I would use all my might to fight off the oppressor. Rockets? Sure. Rocks? Hell yeah! It would not matter if they be were operating under orders from a Fascist Dictator, or a ideal Democracy. Beat me down, and I'll fight back for what is mine (especially my basic human rights). Hamas came to power through democratic elections, does that excuse them from their actions too? No.
Knowingly and intentionally starving a group of people, mostly civilians, to get at the minority of militants among them is a horrendous tactic. Going back to the Golden rule, how would Jews in the rest of the world like it if they were rounded up from their legally owned homes, sent to refugee camps, starved of food, fuel, medicine, power, and treated like third class citizens? Oh wait, they've been their and barely lived through it. Guess they learned well from their oppressors.
Neither side is in the right. Starving a people into submission is in-human. Suicide attacks are deplorable.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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"Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel."
That's an idiotic arguement. Since mortars and rockets fired at Israel haven't killed that many people is reason is sit and do nothing.
You think Israel is going to wait for the ovens?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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"Never again. Remember Masada!"
Is how many Israeli's feel.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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Closer to agreement! i can feel it!
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outsideup in NM
Sport climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
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Scabang and co: Why on earth is this tirade being posted here? There are plenty of forums where you can discuss this very complex issue with people who are interested in getting into it (and are more informed and much more open-minded than you). I'd suggest that if you are truly interested, you try taking your debate elsewhere. Perhaps you'll learn something (though I seriously wonder if that's possible). You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Well Caught, not is all as it appears. I am actually very embarrassed as to how the Israeli's treat the Palestians. Not a "Fatrad/ bluering" follower here. Not by a long shot. I got "into this" simply because comparing their actions to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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"You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing. "
You certainly don't speak for me, but you're obviously entitled to say what you wish.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Let's draft up the peace agreement! We're nearly there!!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
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Caughtinside for our UN rep.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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how many of you old folks recall hearing about this type of stuff for what, the last 30 years at least.
i agree, no more money to anyone in the middle east unless they have oil.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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It was sadly one of my favorite Presidents, Carter, that really messed things up in the region with the Camp David Peace Accord.
Queen Noor (from Jordan) spoke quite passionately of her husbands frustrations with this Peace treaty, that did not include all Middle Eastern States. This was something King Hussein had been working very hard on for a number of years.
I suppose at this point not too much can really be done, now that the U.S. has totally destabilized the entire region with its unwarranted attack of Iraq.
JUST DON'T COMPARE ISRAELI'S TO NAZI'S. THANK YOU
No problem with making fun of Illinois Nazi's. I hate Illinois Nazi's.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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"Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.'
The same could be said for Israel. They go after a few by attacking the many. How would you feel if your home was bulldozed because your kid who no longer lives with you was a terrorist? Could you imagine deciding to now support the terrorist against what you saw as terrorism?
Israel needs to clean up its act and so does Palistine. The US needs to stop supporting the terrorism perpetrated by Israel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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The closer a person follows this conflict, which the media slants to make Israel look good, the more apartheid it looks.
Israel just killed more palestinians in one day than Palestinian rockets have killed during the WHOLE HISTORY of the conflict.
People say "all they have to do is stop launching missiles at Israel" but it's not true. Behind the scene Israel, once things get peaceful, start blockages, assassinations, and other provocations until the other side strikes back and then they use those strikes as an excuse to invade.
It's all about one thing and this was stated plainly from Ben Gurian onwards, to take the whole Levant (Greater Israel) in stages and push the Palestinians inexorably out as fast as world opinion will allow.
Both sides have plenty wrong but our support is what keeps a solution from happening. It's like we're the local judge but we won't slap the wrist of the guy in town who keeps beating his wife savagely (and she might just be a bitch but he married her when she was 10 years old against her will)
It's ugly. It's more like apartheid but the comparison with Germany can be made in that they are both using military force to clear people out for "living room"
peace
Karl
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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Karl you most often are the voice of reason on this site, but you are wrong this time. When Israel became a state in ’48 all the surrounding Arab countries launched a full on offensive to rid the land of Jews.
Granted, there was a civil war in Palestine, in which Zionist Jews committed terrible crimes prior to statehood, but all out war was declared by their neighbors, until the U.N. stepped in.
And at the time, these neighboring Arab countries saw the Palestinians as pawns...not allowing immigration by them into their countries.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
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Your statement above is misinformed Chris. Israel declared itself a state preemptively. Of course there was a struggle. 700,000 Palestinians were forced or pressured (massacres were happening) from their homes.
Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago. To go from that to a Jewish state with borders much larger than those proposed by the UN isn't some matter of innocent people with a right to the land becoming the poor victims of Palestinian terrorism. In fact, many of Jews who became leaders of the new land of Israel were terrorists who had been attacking the British there. There are many myths out there used to justify this "invasion" and "expansion" Some will try to tell you that the Jew simply bought all the Palestinians out of their lands and thus they are indian givers.
You have to really study it to get behind the smokescreen. Since when did the British own the land to give it away anyway?
It's an ugly situation and no clean party is there. Problem is, the United States acts as if the land of Israel is some sinless victim of Muslim abuse and it's not so. The Muslim world sees the Muslim side and so we have a worldwide conflict that's seriously rooted in the Israeli conflict.
That's unfortunate because it means we wind up defending injustice. It would be a lot easier to claim we were noble democrats setting the best example for the world if it wasn't obviously false to those intimate with the real situation.
Sometimes you have to tell your friends to straighten up and fly right to help them get out of the hole they are in. Indulgence of continued Israeli political pandering to the ideology and needs of illegal settlers is the root of not having a fair path to peace
peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
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Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago.
And hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, etc.
Howza bout they get their land back too?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Well DaftRat, the most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html
Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
Post Your Comment (9 comments) eMail to a friend
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למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001
Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).
Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.
In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.
In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?
IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).
Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:
"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)
What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.
Related Links
Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Well, well, isn't that something. We can read about the plight (since 1948) of the Palestinians. Certainly not a luxury that would be afforded to you by any US daily. Fattrad?? Tut, tut. How do you sleep at night knowing that you support Israeli genocide. "i'm sorry if any civilians were killed but...". Do me a favor - your buddy Don Rumsfeld called that "collateral damage" - do you? And don't give me the usual hogwash about suicide bombers and Katushya rockets. Who is the more cowardly murderer - the aforementioned or the pilot who drops his 500lb bomb in a populated area? As a South African jew i spent many years in Israel and i can tell you that Apartheid was child's play in comparison.
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