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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:23am PT
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Thanks Josh, but you're definitely giving me too much credit. I've made many mistakes, and I'm still a "newcomer" on the scene. Plenty of folks replaced a TON of bad bolts before the ASCA ever came along - just look at the list of stuff replaced by Kevin Powell (around 1500 bolts!) or Dan McQuade or Steve Sutton (who came up with "the ASCA" in '95).
Debate is healthy, I don't mind working out the details on anchors that maybe should be removed. And I have to say this: at least we aren't seeing true "retrobolting" in the Valley like what is going on in Red Rocks. Several classic moderate routes that never used to be rappelled and required trad gear at belays now have bolted stations all over the place. It would be comparable to suddenly having 2-bolt stations every pitch on Braille Book or Regular Route on Fairview. Totally changes the character of the climb, lowers the commitment, creates rappel clogging on the route, etc.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:31am PT
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What does retrobolting mean? Is that when you add stuff that wasn't there originaly? I never followed these terminologies so I'm not quite clear on their true meanings.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 12:34am PT
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1) Before everybody goes off the deep end and forgets what this is about, let me say that I am all for replacing old and weak bolts-I have replaced many such myself. What I object to is bolts being added and belay spots being changed around for convenience. However careful Greg is in his research, like someone pointed out, he occasionally screws up. When you put yourself in the spotlight with an high profile organisation like ASCA, you must be prepared to endure scrutiny and criticism. You must know that every time you goof up someone's going to point it out.
2) I do not know Greg, but being nice or being careful do not make you always right. Look at Nanook, who is a prince among men; the nicest, kindest guy you'll ever meet-I can say no bad thing about him as a person-but his bolting ethics carry the most nefarious repute.
3) When I see bolts stamped ASCA I will consider ASCA responsible for them (I dunno...it might have been that other guy... simply doesn't cut it). Perhaps it will make them more careful in selecting to whom they dispense gear.
4) Werner: I think that if you rapped off of chossy mank on your FAs then everybody else should too. It's all about style for me, and I realise that very few people understand style. Perhaps my discussions are a vanity and a waste of time; perhaps those people who value safety and their own convenience above all else will win and soon the entire Valley will be gridbolted; but I will cry out against it as long as I have breath.
4) I have no suitable response for someone too stupid to see the difference between a cam and a bolt
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 12:45am PT
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Wow! The posting is so fast and furious my reply is outdated by the time I type it out.
Werner,
"retrobolting" is what they call adding bolts to an existing climb. It is what Ray Olsen did to Soul Sacrifice to protect the first moves, according to Tucker.
"Rebolting" is what they call pulling out the original bolts and placing new ones, in the same holes, if possible, so that the nature of the climb changes as little as possible.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 12:52am PT
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Greg,
There is indeed some "Red Rocks Style" retroboltibg going on. I do not know who is responsible for it, but Kor Beck has many bolted anchors, as does Central Pillar of Frenzy, and I hear rumors of belays being bolted on DNB. Then, lets not forget the Salathe wall or fail to mention the Steck Salathe, which now have more bolts in them than the FA parties drilled. Red Rocks ethics may be getting closer than you think
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:57am PT
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Holy Moly Ben
If I rapped off some chossy mank on the first ascent only means my partner went first with bomber backup. I never put my partners up to that. I was always the last guy on those rappels and prayed I didn’t die.
I wouldn’t want anyone else to have to do that. But then again that is my own personal opinion.
I totally understand the central point of your debate, Ben, as we’ve had many discussions during the past winters and I always have a lot of respect for your particular style. You are a true old school master and have a lot of excellent raw talent.
But I still wouldn’t want someone to rap off some of the crap I have ........
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 02:02am PT
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"I do not know who is responsible for it, but Kor Beck has many bolted anchors, as does Central Pillar of Frenzy, and I hear rumors of belays being bolted on DNB."
Come on Ben, I've replaced at least 1 anchor on the first 5 of each of those routes, and you're 20 years too late if you want to make a statement on rapping off the first 5 pitches. Really old 1/4" bolts marked those rap stations, and they're well documented as rap stations in the guide book. If they were added and not acceptable to the climbing community, they should have been chopped before becoming the standard. Royal Arches rap route is the most blatant one to focus on. If someone adds bolts to a Valley classic tomorrow, I'll happily go help you chop and clean them up, and I hope someone does that soon with Ginger Cracks and the others at Red Rocks.
We replaced 6 bolts on the Rostrum in '99 (and removed 7 excess bolts including a 3-bolt belay). Along the third pitch, the Reid book shows two optional belays at two seperate single bolts along the crack (the first of which along the perfect hand crack, the second at the little roof - neither of which is needed at all). At the ASCA's request, Don's removing those optional belays and bolts in the next edition, and Chris OK'd not showing the bolts at all in the Supertopo (you can check it out in the Free climbs book). Once Don gets the new Valley guide out, we'll remove those 2 bolts and the route will be better off for it - and the ASCA rebolting on that route alone will be replacing 6 bolts and removing 9. But we're waiting for the main guides to not show the bolts so someone climbing the Rostrum with a light rack doesn't end up belaying off a single cam.
If you want to chop the non-original rap anchors on routes where everyone has been accustomed to rappelling for decades - such as Royal Arches raps - I personally don't have a problem with it, and a lot of people I know would be all for returning it to the original state (but a lot of my friends are very trad, I'm sure many people would be really pissed). But if you (or anyone) does remove such traditional (but non-original) rap routes, it HAS to be well-publicized, unless you're trying to get YOSAR to work overtime.
I think we're basically on the same page with trad values, and the ASCA does make mistakes. Like I said before, debate is a good thing and if there are some ASCA replaced bolts that ought to be chopped, let's talk about it and if needed remove them. Minerals has done that, I've had to do it, and unfortunately it'll probably have to be done again. We ARE trying to do the best job possible and keep it trad.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 31, 2005 - 02:43am PT
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3) When I see bolts stamped ASCA I will consider ASCA responsible for them (I dunno...it might have been that other guy... simply doesn't cut it). Perhaps it will make them more careful in selecting to whom they dispense gear.
i think you give yourself too much credit
4) Werner: I think that if you rapped off of chossy mank on your FAs then everybody else should too. It's all about style for me, and I realise that very few people understand style. Perhaps my discussions are a vanity and a waste of time; perhaps those people who value safety and their own convenience above all else will win and soon the entire Valley will be gridbolted; but I will cry out against it as long as I have breath.
maybe i have it wrong, but my understanding of the FA ethic is that it just has to be ok w/ the FA to add (or replace?) a bolt, as sometimes happens, even in the valley. maybe your more extreme view is just slightly atypical? (as per werner's thoughts...)
kind of funny to read this after clipping bolts at ORG all weekend...
=)
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kev
climber
CA
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May 31, 2005 - 03:41am PT
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Chop the rap route on the arches...Make them do the gully!
I'm all for that...
Also having been someone who has spent a night or two chatting about such things with Greg, I can only say that he is not a mad bolter/rebolter/ etc. He takes it very seriously. Not that he or any of us hasn't made a mistake, but come one give him a break.
Also although I agree that it is a lame excuse that just because the hangers are ASCA doesn't mean they put them up, it's plausable.....Hmmmm ever wonder where those missing hangers wander off to????
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 04:14am PT
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routes evolve ..
.. those who cannot adapt, eventually become extinct ..
i can appreciate ben wah's style and ethic, but its so narrow minded. It makes very little sense to die while rappelling -- or to die because your anchor blew chunks.
.. difference in style .. for sure.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 31, 2005 - 07:03am PT
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"4) Werner: I think that if you rapped off of chossy mank on your FAs then everybody else should too. It's all about style for me, and I realise that very few people understand style. Perhaps my discussions are a vanity and a waste of time; ..."
Vanity - couldn't agree more, BW. If you really want to do climbs in the FA's style, go find something that hasn't been done yet! It's the only way to do something in the FA style.
Waste of time - only if you are too stubborn to change your mind.
Few people understand style - Actually most people understand style, and most understand more than one. And most know that styles change.
Another thought. Some of these climbs weren't repeated for a year or more. Now many are done several times a day, or if longer routes, may have an average of more than one party per day on them. I guess if you get to the route first, it would be ok to tie it up while you do it in the style of the FA. Let those people behind you wait, right?
Just guessin' that you do not still tie in to a swami? Probably use cams because they don't damage the rock? Is that because you have an open mind, or just because that was how they were doing it when you started?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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May 31, 2005 - 09:18am PT
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re."4) I have no suitable response for someone too stupid to see the difference between a cam and a bolt"
I guess I'm one of those stupid people he is refering to. Would anyone else care to explain the distinction in regards to the effect on climbing "experience"?
I truly don't understand how clipping crappy anchors preserves the adventure and thrill that climbing ElCap twenty years ago provided while at the same time using modern age gear does not change the experience in the same way that new anchors would. I can't help but find it strange that the people who want rusty 1/4" bolts for anchors don't hesitate to use the safest and most advanced active protection they can get their hands on while on lead.
What am I missing? Why is this a stupid way of looking at it?
btw. I have no doubt that climbing ElCap twenty years ago was a much bolder undertaking than it is today. I don't think anyine would argue that point. However, wasn't the experience about much more than just the style of anchors? Can preserving crappy anchors really bring back an entire era? That notion seems contrived.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
Pagosa Springs CO
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May 31, 2005 - 10:27am PT
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Let's talk about "creep".
The old 1/4" Rawl split-drive bolts which were prevalent in Yosemite in the old days require the outward spring tension of the two slices of the bolt to be secure. After about 30 years, "creep" destroys the strength of the bolt when the spring factor disappears, and the bolt becomes virtually as weak as a plain dowel in a hole. In other words most of the bolts in Yosemite from pre-80's would have been pure timebombs in the 90's and 2000's.
If it wasn't for Greg, Chris, and the ASCA, there would probably be a lot of people today pancaked splat-dead on the valley floor from anyone trying to anchor on the original bolts of the 50's, 60's, 70's.
All I can say is hats off to the rebolters, without whom climbing would probably have been shut down by the land managers because of the crisis liability.
Thanks you guys!
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 11:14am PT
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Yes, very nice Duce
The extremists will always want everyone to follow their order forgetting the true principles of life.
So in general this anchoring repair and beefing up does not really come from crazy zealots who lack adventure or fundamental vision in our true path, but in a morally conscious society that discriminates between right and wrong. The foundation for truth has to be firmly understood otherwise we will continue eternally this hypocrisy and quarrel.
Due to our own self righteous and morally illusions consciousness we only see our own selves onto everything outside of us.
Without a solid foundation in truth no anchor by anyone will ever guarantee to hold ........
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bestbefore
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 11:17am PT
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I am not a valley local, and wouldn't dare to wade into the big picture questions of bolted belay/rap stations, etc. But I do have two very brief observations to make:
1) When it comes to questions of style, leaving manky, terrifying 1/4 split drive bolts in place does not preserve the original "experience". We old timers may have been follish in this regard, but when we placed those bolts we believed they were absolutely bombproof. Objectively, those bolts probably never were bomber, and as Deuce4 points out they sure as hell aren't now, but that is beside the point. In terms of "commitment" and perceived risk, we never thought we were hanging on timebombs. To do so now significantly changes the first ascent "experience".
2) A mind is a terrible thing to waste, but it happens with age...so I can't be certain of details from the fuzzy past...but I'm pretty sure that when I first visited the Valley in 1980 and climbed the La Cositas, there were already two anchors...one sensibly placed on the main ledge and one off to the side...so (if memory serves, for a change) I can't say which is original, but the "ledge" anchor must be "established" for at least 25 years. As i say, my memory may be FOS - someone local will have a more certain grasp of the facts, I'm imagine.
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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May 31, 2005 - 11:53am PT
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BenWah, you rant about how it's all about style for you, then diss the guy who mentioned cams. Do you get by on the rock a lot easier than the old guys did because of sticky rubber, cams, and internet beta? If so, by the very simplest reasoning you must admit that you are not staying true to the FA style.
If only you would admit the obvious: you want to be regarded as better or more valuable because you are willing to take greater risks with fixed anchors. At least this would be honest. But it is willful prevarication on your part to complain about adhering to style while indulging in the use of an offset Alien. How many times have you cruised with modern gear past flared Valley cracks that caused Harding/Robbins/et al such gutwrenching peril?
I don't deny the validity of your embrace of a certain style. But you can't crow about rapping off FA mank when you used the latest modern gear to GET to the rap station.
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bestbefore
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:02pm PT
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JFK,
Such clarity of vision, directness of speech and unambiguous ethics...how could the American people have failed to elect you?
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 12:09pm PT
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Once again, I think every manky 1/4" bolt should be replaced, if it was placed by the FA. Of course the FA party wanted bomber pro when they placed a bolt, and there should be bomber pro today. But the number of bolts on a route should not be added to. Period.
Ricardo, I know that styles change, and that is what I am bummed about. Instead of changing towards an ever higher standard, the floods of new climbers are trying to change towards an ever lower standard, so they can have instant gratification without having to step up to the plate and climb. The things I like in climbing: boldness, commitment, yes, even occasional danger, are being removed, and if all the climbers in the world think that's good and I'm the only one who doesn't, I will still (stubbornly, yes) adhere to my opinion. Without some measure of commitment, without having to launch off to either summit or leave most of your gear bailing, climbing becomes merely moves, like being in a gym. I for one do not want to see the park become a giant outdoor gym.
Greg, I'm all for removing the excess bolts on the Rostrum (and the ones you pulled on the Good Book) Harding did not have the kind of gear we have today when he placed those. I wish more people were for pulling unnecessary bolts and not for adding bolts wherever they get scared. I think the RA rap route needs to go. "Become Established?" that's preposterous nonsense. Unless the FA established a bolt, I do not consider it established. Maybe no one has chopped it and it's been there twenty years-who cares? if it's not original it needs to go.
Matt, whom do you suggest I consider responsible for a bolt stamped ASCA when I see one? All the ones with loose nuts and baggy holes must be attributable to someone else? You perhaps?
For the other guy who asked: Yes I do still tie into a swami, and sometimes I climb on just hexes and nuts; I find it piquing to see what a route might have felt like in the days of more primitive pro. It can give you a new level of respect for those old timers and for their particular ethic
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
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JFK,
Your posting came up while I was typing my last one.
I do not own any Aliens at all, offset or otherwise. The fact that there is now better gear than the FA had only strengthens my argument that if they made it up w/o bolts, we certainly, with our offset aliens, curve nuts, flex cams et al, should be able to. Use whatever modern gear you wish; I have no problem with this: but do not drill extra holes.
You seem to be saying that if they were unsafe on the pitch it's OK to be unsafe on the rappel. What is wrong with being safe on the pitch and having a sketchy rap? Pointless? perhaps, but climbing itself is pointless. You want to be safe? Go play tiddlywinks. But be sure you wear your goggles
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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Ben said: “I for one do not want to see the park become a giant outdoor gym.
And last Octobers events on El Capitan are a testament to the high power that controls that fear.
Walt Shipley added a bolt on half dome on a route where nothing more could be done and at that moment short of a full retreat. Are you now suggesting that a full retreat is now our only alternative instead of placing the bolt?
Now … Ben I have questions.
Why do we want to be safe no matter what?
Why do we [really] want to preserve our life?
Why not we eliminate stop signs, traffic signals, and bridges?
Are we a separate entity from the same society that we depend on, for our sustains (ie) food, clothing, etc?
Are we, (climbers), really the Dingus terminology, ... “Animal Farm” ......?
Or are you really trying to say we are, warriors, the very Kstriyas, that depend on God for the Supreme knowledge that transcends the ordinary mundane knowledge the masses exhibit in their modes of goodness, passion and ignorance on life and death?
I am unclear of your true aim towards the target?
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