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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 12, 2008 - 02:10am PT
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The little solar yard-lights I got this year kick ass over the ones from just a couple years ago. And they were cheaper.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2008 - 02:14am PT
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Thanks for the information Chris.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 12, 2008 - 02:39am PT
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Mechanical engineers?
Wonder what the ELECTRICAL Engineers have to say about that?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 12, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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Yeah, Like the war will pay for itself in 100 years. Did the moon shot pay for itself?
New energy technology is critical for this planet. If it costs too much now, spending that money will support the developing tech and lead to eventual economies of scales.
Peace
Karl
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
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Oct 12, 2008 - 10:31am PT
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"Mechanical engineers?
Wonder what the ELECTRICAL Engineers have to say about that? "
Dirt,
The job description of a mechanical engineer is transferal of power from one system to another. We're the ones designing and running your generating plants.
And the materials engineers working on new PV cell design? Bingo, MEs.
Really though, it's a cross-discipline field.
And Chaz,
If you're worried about the efficiencies of PV cells, go passive solar; it's simple and cheap.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Oct 12, 2008 - 10:37am PT
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Worth mentioning that the price of panels is going to drop next year.
Large increases in polysilicon supply will be starting to hit the market by the end of the year. Manufacturers have been ramping up volume to the extent that analysts are expecting a glut of panels over the next couple of years. This coming at a time when demand could take a big hit, since the cost and availability of credit is central to the economic viability of PV systems, both big and small.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 12, 2008 - 10:41am PT
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"I have heard anecdotally that the EROEI of solar has doubled every 5 years for the last 25 years. That report was in 2002. i imagine that EROEI has gone way up since then. "
You have to wonder how good solar would be now if it had received the billions in subsidies that Nuke got over the years
Peace
Karl
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Oct 12, 2008 - 10:49am PT
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Chris,
Good for you. I've been thinking about/trying to budget for solar for a year or so now.
Quick question:
How do you get the 3kw system for 6000 (even post rebate)? One of the sites you linked us to (http://www.solarpowerrocks.com/california/); suggests that a 3kw system in SF would run more like $26,000 (before rebates).
Brian
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minexploration
Social climber
Whitefish Montana
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Oct 12, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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The crazy part about all this discussion is that everyone is talking about solar panels. There are many new solar technologies out there that could make solar panels a thing of the past and allow houses that are not perfect to benefit from solar technology.
Just one technology is the Solar tube that collects light in a 360 degree environment. An interesting site is www.solyndra.com and an interesting article is http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/thin-film-solar.html
Just thought that I would throw this out there to chew on.
JRW
Engineer by training
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Oct 12, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
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Chris
I had a 1.76 KV array installed a couple of years ago and
I couldn't be happier. With the Excel Energy rebate and my
federal tax credit, I paid about $7k for the entire setup.
And aside from nighttime, I generate all of my electricity.
I am hooked into the grid, and sell my power back to the
utility, which additionally subtracts from the cost.
A great deal, and it's clean!!!! (When I use power from the
grid I'm using power generated by windmills too)!
I hope you can get your block to do it Chris! Way to go!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 12, 2008 - 01:55pm PT
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Chris, you rock.
Nothing could be more patriotic nor protect you better for the future than supporting alternative energy companies with money (even gov money) and becoming more energy independent yourself
Peace
Karl
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Oct 12, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
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Chris,
Thanks for the saving calculator.
I'd really like to go solar for philosophical and environmental reasons; but the cost calculation has kept be focused on other ways to 'green."
Our electrical bills are on the order of $25-$40 a month, generally toward the lower end of that spectrum (with 4 people in my family). I guess we don't have as many electrical gadgets as other folks or something. The payback period for that kind of savings is long (12+ years). Especially because my current understanding is that CA will not buy back excess power from home systems, so any energy you generate over what you use goes back to the state, but you don't get paid for it.
I'm still interested in working out a good solar system. Here in southern CA I should be a prime candidate for solar. I just have to get someone over here to give an estimate, price the system and rebates, etc.
Thanks again for getting folks interested in this.
Brian
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 12, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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The biggest energy savings, as always, are from conserving. That is, modest sized houses built with energy conservation in mind, both in terms of materials and construction, and actual operation. In urban areas, at least, with reasonable density, to support functional public transit etc.
It's a bit like sidewalks - it costs virtually nothing when building them to provide for wheelchair/scooter ramps at corners. It costs a lot to retrofit them.
Recognizing that south Lake Tahoe probably will never have very high density, that houses there are probably fairly large and spread out, and not built with energy conservation in mind.
Good to see that Chris is taking the initiative on this, though, as every bit helps. And a willingness to try new things is essential in terms of the problems facing the U.S., whether energy or otherwise.
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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Oct 12, 2008 - 03:43pm PT
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3.2 kW system on my roof. southwest exposure. The shade is not a problem because my dickwad neighbor poisoned my shade tree a couple years before I had solar put in.
I have to wash the panels at least 2-3 times per year or I take a big hit on production. Been running the system for 3 years now. No real issues.
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blake
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 12, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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Chris, I'm glad you're promoting solar, and looking into it for your own property.
It is true that with the (now uncapped) residential Federal ITC, combined with the CA CSI/NSHP programs, and especially combined with the SF rebate, residential PV is a better deal than ever.
Commercial PV is often an even better deal, depending on rate schedules and patterns of site electrical usage.
This thread has some good information (mostly from Chris) and some common misconceptions (lifecycle energy analysis, E/W orientation "not good" or "not eligible for rebates", 100 year payback, "better to wait for next generation technology", etc).
The reality is that there are only a few choices for truly renewable energy available today, and for many home and business owners, PV makes a lot of sense, both environmentally and financially.
I know because the company I've worked at for the last 5+ years has designed and installed going-on 1,000 real-life, working systems, both solar electric (PV) and solar thermal ("hot water"). As a few posters on this thread have confirmed, there are many happy solar system owners available to share their success stories.
Chris, if you or any other climbers reading this thread can use any help understanding the technical details of PV for your building (electrical, structural, mechanical, environmental), or evaluating proposals from (the huge number of) installation contractors, feel free to email me.
[company plug: if you're relatively local to the SF Bay Area, we are also available to provide a free estimate for your solar project]
Go Solar!
Blake
Blake W. Gleason, P.E.
Engineering Department Manager
Sun Light and Power
1035 Folger Avenue
Berkeley, CA 94710
Office: 510-845-2997
Fax: 510-845-1133
blake@sunlightandpower.com
http://www.sunlightandpower.com
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Oct 13, 2008 - 09:01am PT
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Chris
I've heard there are moves in places where the expense of
the solar systems would be wound into the house's value,
so if the owner sold the house, the buy would be paying
a pro-rated amount for the solar installation. That would be
a super way to energize this market too--the owner, unless they
lived their life out at the home, would get some additional
financial incentive to purchase one.
GO SOLAR
(On my way to Facelift, my friend Bob drove us by a huge
solar installation north of Crestline, CA).
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 13, 2008 - 09:29am PT
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God help ups in MEs are doing all the work on solar ( sorry for a little Math/physics/EE joke)
And not everyone is talking about panels.
THE thin film revolution is about to hit big.
BTW, isn't one of Obama's proposals a 35% credit for going solar?
Ant any rate ( haha a joke) thanks CHris fro posting the details of your investment.
ANd yes Karrl, as you know, the moon program paid for itself oer and over, with things line miniturization VLSI and all its much smaller reltaives came from that) and latex paint for example.
IF The idiot rethuglican icon Ronald Rayguns had not dismantled Carters's energy commission, we'd be 30 years ahead of where we are now. THE USA would likely be the world leader in alt energy, and THAT would be GOOD for everyone. Well except oil companies and oil men.
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