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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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Here's some personal history...
My topo binder from the late '70's into the '80's
Some shots of old Meyer's topos (published by Robbins/Mountain Tools.)
Here is a topo of the NF Rostrum. MArk Blanchard and I had done the fist eight before I tried (in vain) to free an off-width (done as aid back then) and tore my hand open trying to grab a bong during a fall. What an arsine thing to do! We retreated with my hand bleeding profusely to the Mountain Room where Kauk and Yabo chatted us up for beta as to whether the route would go free. We assured them WE were the wrong people but others who had skill and talent could do the first nine. They did. Later MArk went back and soloed the route (no need for bleeders...) and together we drew this.
Finally... here is a topo I created years ago when I thought I would publish a topo guide. This is a pretty obscure climb in the ditch. This topo is so old the Letraset press-on lettering I used is coming off so the name is no longer there. What route is this?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Simon,
That last topo looks like a route first climbed by TC in the 60s.
We'll see if anyone has a different answer...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Topos were pretty common in the Valley by the late sixties. Pratt's notebook had the route descriptions largely in topo form. Perhaps Don Lauria can comment more; I remember him writing about sketching a topo of the Dihedral Wall for their third ascent in a Summit Magazine article entitled "Dihedral Diary" around the time I was in high school (ca. 1967). Incidentally, that article was the first time I heard about the Cult of the Blue Cagoule.
I still have my personal notebooks where I tried to compile my own topos in the Valley and the Sierra, but my system was somewhat worse than that proposed by the UIAA in the 60's.
I also remember an article on routes on Pingora in the Vulgarian Digest, with what was described as the "route description of the future," being a topo of one of the climbs (Beanie Retrieve).
John
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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TC and GC both had a hand in this lil' thing.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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Here is one of the topos from the 1974 British (Nicol, Livesey and Nannery) book.
I have more of these oldies if anyone wants to see 'em.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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I was such a climbing geek in middle school in the early 70's, I read Ropers Green Guide, cover to cover, a number of times. So when I first saw some topos I was really down on the idea, having bought into Ropers ethic of the classic verbal description being the right balance between information and leaving space for your own adventure.
Of course I grew out of that like we all did. Though I still enjoy wandering up a route without info occasionally.
Peter
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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Geek! HA! I got ya beat!
I was in junior high at the same time as you and I too coveted the green guide. I knew that thing vertabtim cover-to-cover But.... and this is where I beat you for geekdom... I managed to get mine signed by...
wait for it....
Dean Caldwell!
(I'm not proud...)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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Simon,
Thanks for posting the Nicol / Livesey / Nannery topo - I have never seen one of those before.
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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Negative Pinnacle?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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That's correct Scuffy. Does anyone do that anymore? I think it's free now...
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Right on IhatePlastic!
Course my mom gave me a copy of Downward Bound for xmas in 8th grade, so I would have hero worshipped Dean Caldwell also. Good on ya.
On Sierra Club weekend outings to the Valley, folks would come up to me for obscure route recommendations just because I had memorized the green book.
Peter
Edit,
Negative Pinnacle, Damm straight its free, at least the Right Side first pitch, myself and Auggie Klein, 1979 or 80.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 20, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Har!
behind the zion curtain it would be a proto/pre, arch,
in Yosemite, it's a negative pinnacle.
Locale informs jargon.
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#310
Social climber
Telluride, CO
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Nov 20, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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In Chuck Kroger's "climbing book" which starts in 1967, there are climbing topos that I think he copied from someone else or did himself after he completed the climbs.
In the 1967 section are: El Cap West Buttress & Yosemite Point Buttress. Both drawn by Chuck - maybe traced?
In the 1968 section are: two different South Face Washington Column topos (one based on info from Pratt, Davis, Calfee, Miburn, Waterman and Kroger; Penny Nickle - East Face (FA by Kroger & Kep Stone) - all of these drawn by Chuck and one of Half Dome Direct that is a copy from somewhere else. There are many more topos - both hand drawn by Chuck and copies - most from Yosmeite routes - some of desert routes like Shiprock.the Shiprock topos are signed by ECA (Ernie C. Anderson) and Don Liska. So topos were in common use by 1967 in the Valley. Copies were being circulated and mutlitple topos by different "authors" existed of the same route. I don't know how to scan and post these topos but I have lots of 1967 to 1971 era topos. Kathy - Chuck's wife
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Double D
climber
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Nov 20, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Peter wrote, " was such a climbing geek in middle school in the early 70's, I read Ropers Green Guide, cover to cover, a number of times. So when I first saw some topos I was really down on the idea, having bought into Ropers ethic of the classic verbal description being the right balance between information and leaving space for your own adventure.
Of course I grew out of that like we all did. Though I still enjoy wandering up a route without info occasionally."
Roper's guide rocked! His approach and descent descriptions are SO MUCH BETTER than the modern topo-guides that I've seen. Got me up the slabs approach of HD, down Washingston's Column bushwack, of course East Ledges...etc, etc etc.
Do like the pictures though... it's kinda like the difference between reading literature and a comic book though!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 09:28am PT
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As others have stated, like most things in climbing 'modern' topos seem to have originated in Europe.By this I mean quite detailed "route maps", usually broken down by pitches, with prominent features identified. I believe that they were "formally" introduced into US climbing circles in the 1963 AAJ in an article on the first US ascent of the Walker Spur by John Harlin.If my memory is correct, in it he describes the European use of topos and one for the Walker accompanies the account. Prior to this there existed mimeographed hand-drawn sketches of various crags with general route lines drawn in, for places such as the Gunks, but these were not as detailed as the European topos, which also initially tended to be for longer alpine routes and were intended to be copied and brought along on the climb to avoid carrying the full guidebook. As for guidebooks in general, following the Alpine guides described earlier, English-language (I don't know much about guidebook evolution in other counties) guidebooks specifically for rock-climbing appeared in the late nineteenth century in Great Britain, written by early rock-climbing pioneers such as Haskett-Smith, the Abraham brothers, and HG Jones . These early books were a mix of adventure narrative, photo essay(especially the Abrahams' books), and route description, but by the early 20th Century very modern-style text guidebooks were being published in Britain, such as Laycock's for some gritstone climbs. In the US, I believe that the first published guidebook specifically focusing on rock climbing was Wilts' original guidebook to Tahquitz Rock in the early 50s---but may well be wrong on that. Prior there were a number of informal guides to various areas that were privately circulated, as well as route descriptions and some guidebook-type articles published in various club journals. While a few other rock-climbing guidebooks appeared in the intervening years, 1964/5 was a landmark period for the publication of US rock climbing guidebooks, with Roper's Yosemite guidebook and volumnes for 3 northeastern areas (the Gunks, Ragged Mountain, CT., and Quincy Quarries, MA), and I believe, one for the Leavenworth, Wash. areas all being released. That opened the floodgates.....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2008 - 10:16am PT
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Thanks Alan,
from Henry Kendall's article "The Walker Spur of the Grandes Jorasses" in [url="http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1963/376_kendall_walkerspur_aaj1963.pdf"]AAJ 1963 p376[/url]
'A further account of an ascent would not be warranted were it not for the fact that growing interest in Alpine climbing among American climbers makes it useful to publish a complete description of such a big climb in a journal accessible to those tempted to try an ascent. The European climbers, before starting on a major ascent, “do their homework” by assembling what in France is called a “topo”. A topo is not a topographic map but is as complete a route description as can be gathered by talking to other climbers who are familiar with the route. A topo is not a supplement to the usually inadequate guidebook description of a major climb-it supplants it entirely.'
emphasis added by me... (Henry is a fellow particle physicist, and a Nobel Prize winner, 1990)
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 11:50am PT
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I'm embarrassed, not only was it Kendall who wrote the article, but Harlin wasn't even on the climb---his partner was Hemming. So much for my memory......I guess Divad was right in his post on the Gunk's Reunion thread---I am getting old !!!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Since Clint had not seen these British topos before I thought I'd end the week with a few more from that book.
Misty Wall and Snatch
Basketcase
Heart
Koko Ledge
Mouth
South Face Half Dome
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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This is probably utterly unimportant, but I thought I'd throw in simply that I made a very high quality and detailed "topo" with lines and comments, and "x" marks for bolts, and so forth, when my young friend Ruwitch and I did our ascent of the Nose (in June 1967, just prior to Madsen's ascent...). I had not seen a topo of the route. That doesn't mean one didn't exist or hadn't been made, but I certainly knew of none.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2008 - 12:24am PT
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totally cool, Pat! do you remember where you got the idea for drawing such a thing?
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