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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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If they don't respect the past of the sport, how can they credit and validate the future?
How can they sell our present accomplishments as significant when they have so easily dismissed what has come before?
I imagine their articles are more gossip columns than insightful presentation of our sport. (Silly editor should study Pat Ament's Wizards of Rock before continuing.)
AF
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Trippel40
Social climber
CO
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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Im a little confused.
If you talked to "the senior editor of Rock & Ice and she..." Im assuming you talked to Alison Osius. Didn't she "...spent more than a few days in the Valley ..."?
Some other stuff doesn't jive. Like Chiloe, Ive seen what appears to be fairly broad coverage of climbing styles in the mag and actually preffer it over Climbing which is possibly the shallowest mag out there at the moment IMO.
I remember a recent character study on a guy from Colorado who had recently died. He was not well known (I sadly can't remember his name) but was apparently widely respected for his strong traditional ethic and routinely had cartoons gracing R&I making fun od sport climbers and rap drillers in particular. They also had a nice piece on Charlie Fowler.
As to them not replying, I sent them a sutupid letter to the editor once and got a reply so Im puzzled about the lack of response thing too.
Anyway, their actions as Ive seen them don't jive with what you are saying you experienced.
Im guessing there is a communication issue here somewhere and such issues always imply misunderstanding on both ends.
I suspect this thread blows the problem way out of proportion.
Just my gut feeling.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Aug 14, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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"We" blowing things out of proportion? Never... (Smiling...)
I don't know who he is referring to and... I also have never known a person that hasn't done a mistake. Maybe "the editor" was having a bad day or... The article was not up to standard, etc. All I know is that an article honoring Barry Bates would have been nice.
Beyond that... (Shrugging) It really is not a matter of who's fault it is. This thread, these responses, this rant... It is about keeping people who do the reporting aware of the past as much as they are of the present and future. We like to have more stuff written that honors our history. Apparently the magazines that do that seam to be getting more street credit than the ones that don't.
AF
(Edited, Kath caught me with my facts wrong... Hey Kath, can you come over and hit me on the head once in a while! Apparently I need it.)
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scuffy b
climber
Elmertown
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:01pm PT
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I thought he just had some tendinitis.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:19pm PT
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Given the number of folks leaving recently, I think we can understand Anastasia believing that the Bates piece would be an obit.
We're about to go through a pretty important historical transition. Climbing didn't really become a mass sport in North America until the '60s, and the folks involved are just now hitting the hard side of middle age.
There will be a wave of folks leaving-- Euros went through this a long time ago, like WW1. The good news is that Europe at least survived that transition and there is some real sense of continuity to the climbing there, although there are important segments of selective amnesia.
Alison is a good person and a good writer or at least she was when I knew her. If you do a short, well-illustrated piece that is well-crafted, and framed in a way that will appeal to the R&I demographic (cf the Sharma comments above), I imagine one of the 'zines ought to be interested.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:19pm PT
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Thanks for the correction Kath! I should know as a historian that to assume is to be wrong. I just thought because of the write up it must have been an obituary... It is just like assuming an artist is dead because his pieces are expensive. (If you examine the reality of it, you realize just how unfounded this concept is.)
AF
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Trippel40
Social climber
CO
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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Hey, AF, you are absolutely correct! I didn't mean to imply at all that someone who has had such an impact on climbing shouldn't be recognized. The related topic detailing Bates contributions is an awesome read and much appreciated by those of us who don't know him.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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I've wondered why Chris doesn't create a venue for this sort of thing on ST. Seems like it would be a simple undertaking to have a 'features' section where people can submit articles and stories. This forum is a great resource, and interesting stories appear in the form of posts frequently. But the format of the forum doesn't really lend itself to genuine articles like the one mentioned in the OP.
Anyway, the Bate's Problem on the Columbia is one of my absolute favorites. I'm always surprised at how little traffic it seems to get - it's a classic. I'd like to know more about the author.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 14, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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A venue for articles would be great. But who would edit it?
SP does something like that.
I wouldn't cry too much if a Bates piece didn't make it into R&I or Climbing. I honestly don't know who buys those things now anyway. A decent web piece gets way more views. Alpinist deserves a silver anniversary precisely because it's a hopeless climate for serious journals and they're still alive.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2008 - 10:20pm PT
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Hmmm... this is taking a weird turn.
First and absolutely the most important... Barry is very much alive!
Now, with regard to Trippel40's comments... Sorry if things appear not to "jive." Yes, I spoke with Alison. I was not looking to get her approval on-site to submit the piece, just to take a second stab at gauging the interest. It was during this conversation that I noticed a lost look on her face so I backtracked to confirm she knew who the hell I was speaking about. It was at that moment that she admitted she did not know Barry nor his accomplishments.
Do the pubs cover more than sport? Sure, but in my HO they seem a bit biased toward it. And with regard to your comments about the, "character study" and Charlie Fowler I suppose if I was narrow-minded I might point out that in both cases the climbers were Colorado based as is R&I AND Climbing AND... Trippel40. Now, I don't want to start a west coast/east coast/Bloods/Crips turf war... just pointing out a coincidence. I bet Alison knows who John Gill and Pat Ament are...
Is the thread blowing "the problem way out of proportion"? Sure... but that's the fun of this place!
As for me... I'm still looking under the couch cushions.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 14, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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If Barry Bates had bouldered in the Front Range (if Bates Arete was in Flagstaff instead of CR), Allison and lots of other folks would know the name. And that's partly our fault (West Coasters) for doing a weaker job of keeping up with the history of the sport. That's partly because the hub of the Rockies, Boulder, was an academic town; partly because the successful mags (Climbing and R&I) were C); and partly because of the particular folks/writers who called the Front Range home.
Bates was also pretty significant as a free climber, and especially in Yos., and I think Roger makes a good case in that other thread.
I'm less persuaded by bvb's claim that the '70-72 period opened up everything that happened in Yo free climbing after that. All those key climbs of the seventies followed crack lines or reasonably low-angle face. Owl Roof is rad, but it's one of the wide cracks tipped on edge. I think the move out into the steep, in areas without clear crack lines, was a huge step, both psychologically and technically. I don't think that we can give the seventies generation credit for that development.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Aug 14, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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I'd like to point out that, if a few of us ranting on this thread took a moment to send brief notes to Climbing about how appalled we are to Alison's reaction, we might influence their reconsideration. Matt Samet is the guy they want you to send letters to. His email is:
msamet@climbing.com
I'm guessing Alison has a similar address. Make some noise in the right venue, and you'd be surprised what can be accomplished.
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Trippel40
Social climber
CO
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Aug 15, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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IHP,
I hope it works out for you and I look forward to reading it!
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guest
climber
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Aug 18, 2008 - 04:01am PT
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billygoat -- if you want your "noise" about those "ignorant magazine editors" (not defending them, btw, and, no, i don't work for them, but rather i'm noting some humorous irony in your posts) to carry any weight, you might want to start by sending it to the right magazine. Alison works for Rock & Ice, not Climbing.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Aug 18, 2008 - 05:10am PT
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With an increasing population, and climbers being higher adrenaline sorts, "what's happening now" is what most people want in a magazine, and is still too much to get into the magazines.
Real climbers get enough out of their climbing, and do not need to write about it.
When the worthless climbing magazine editors would not print enough of my mountaineering freedom comments in the early 80's, and even attacked those comments, to support the benevolent National Park Service cockroaches issuing citations to climbers for not sufficiently kowtowing to idiots with government jobs, I published the Alaskan Alpine Club Newsletters (20 - 40 pages) to learn the separate knowledge of mountain climbing magazine publishing.
Later I made my own websites. No editor hassles.
Mainstream publications, such as the American climbing magazines, exist to keep readers ignorant and compliant to power. Bush could not have otherwise started his ego-gratification wars with the extra money paid by idiot climbers paying the $200 tax to walk on public land in Denali National Park, among myriads of other taxes on everything.
The mainstream "free press" never effectively questions government thugs, explaining the success of the American Police State.
Since nobody learns from history, or wars would not exist, make history yourself, rather than read about it. If you write it, you will learn vastly more than the person who reads it.
Last year I subscribed to Alpinist for a year, got one issue, was sent a renewal notice, and heard of other people with the same story.
The topic of a magazine has very little to do with magazine publishing. Expect nothing worth more than the ads from the business of magazines.
Make your own climbing websites, and let climbers know the URL's.
And there we jolly well have it for yet more squandering of time on the internet. Tomorrow I get out my Klepper kayak to make sure I left it in good order to chase a moose in a couple weeks.
Doug
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 18, 2008 - 05:30am PT
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Put yer profile of Bates up here...
you've got the best audience,
to Hell with the climbing rags,
they're most all owned and operated by big media, go figure.
 ec
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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Yep, I'm going down a different path with the article... when I have a free moment.
However, with respect to Doug's comment:
"Real climbers get enough out of their climbing, and do not need to write about it."
Uhh...
Royal Robbins
Chuck Pratt
Jim Bridwell
Tom Frost
Chris Bonnington
Doug Scott
Ron Kauk
Chris Jones
Glen Denny
Steve Roper
Al Steck
W.E. Bowman
Warren Harding
Galen Rowell
A. Phimister Proctor
Ed Cooper
Paul Piana
Mark Chapman
David Roberts
Tom Higgins
John Long
Mark Hudon
Phil Burke
Mugs Stump
Jeff Lowe
Fred Beckey
And the list goes on. Plenty of fake climbers out there!
Just messin' with you Doug! Now jump in that lil' ol' kayak and have some fun
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 18, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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The raft of comments to the effect of "R&I and Climbing just publish junk about sport climbs" and Chiloe's list of what is actually in the most recent R&I remind me of going through this same argument, but from the other side.
I was the editor of The Canadian Alpine Journal in the mid-80s and early 90s. During that time I got sacks full of mail telling me that my choice of content was completely out of touch with what the majority of readers wanted. "Most readers of the CAJ are moderate climbers, but all you publish is stuff about extreme ascents that we can't relate to."
Like Chiloe, I'd reply with a page count showing that at least 75% of the content was in fact reports of moderate routes by ordinary climbers. But my replies never made any difference. No facts could make any difference: The lead story was about an extreme climb, therefore the entire journal was focused on extreme climbs.
Same thing happened at Ascent. I co-edited the final issue with Allen and Roper, and during the process we received plenty of mail telling us that the major focus was all wrong -- that there was too much of X and almost none of Y (with Y, of course, being what was really important). X and Y varied from letter writer to letter writer.
I'm not sure what it is that prevents people from seeing what the balance of content in a publication really is. Or why people complain about it at all. The reason R&I (or just about any publication in any field) prints what it does is that it believes that is what will bring in the greatest income. In the real world, this means paying attention to readers, advertisers, owners, and sugar daddies. I encourage anyone who believes the current publications are doing it all wrong to redress the balance by starting their own climbing magazine.
David
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Aug 19, 2008 - 06:26am PT
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In defense of.....
"Real climbers get enough out of their climbing, and do not need to write about it."
Now we are discussing the definition of "real climbers", like the "real" of anything among two or more people.
Might it be that "well known climbers" are "well known climbers" who wrote about their climbing, while you may have not heard about most or all "real climbers"?
To use a modern analogy, I once saw a climbing magazine article with a photo of a full gortex unisuit near the summit of St. Elias. Oh, yes, there was a climber in the suit.
I thereupon remembered the photo of the Duke of Abrutzi and his colleagues on the summit of Elias, in tweed wool suits, high top leather boots, fedora hats with the brims tied down over the ears, heavy tripod and brass survey instruments, etceteras.
If one among those climbers is more real from the "tough guy" consideration, who among the list of "well known climbers" would claim to be a real climber when facing some genuinely tough, tough guys perhaps 4,000 years ago, who clawed their way to serious Alaska Range summits, with sticks and what was to the villagers, abject insanity, and did not get the story to current climbing rags?
Well known climbers are well known climbers. Real climbers may have never climbed more than gentle hills, but sacrificed dearly to protect the rights of other climbers, while no few well known, repugnant American climbers maliciously screwed-over all the other climbers by supporting more government regulations denying climbers their rights.
Given a choice of only one as a friend, would you select the real climber who climbed little and would defend your absolute rights as a climber, or a well known climber who actively supports the government denial of your climbing rights?
If fact, Otzi the Ice Man, honorary member of the Alaskan Alpine Club, was rumored to have been killed by mountaineering rangers during his protest climb without a permit.
There are some "real climbers" out there who will never be mentioned by the worthless climbing rags who dare not upset their American Alpine Club/Access Fund/National Park Service climber image owners.
Real climbers handle truth like they handle each hand hold, learning it from incentive. Institutions such as climbing rags and government agencies cannot handle truth, never learning it.
Just different things. Both entertaining.
Doug
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 20, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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Barry Bates climbs in Yosemite Valley:
Bongs Away, Center 5.10a FA 1970 Barry Bates, Mark Klemens
Koko Ledge, Far Right 5.10a FA 1970 Barry Bates, Sergio Roch
Independence Pinnacle, Center Route 5.10d FA 1970 Dave Hampton, Barry Bates, Matt Donohoe
Waverly Wafer 5.10c FA 1970 Jim Bridwell, Barry Bates, Bev Johnson
Yoghurt Dihedral 5.9 FA 1970 Rick Sylvester, Barry Bates
Chocolate Dihedral 5.9 FA 1970 Rick Sylvester, Matt Donohoe, Barry Bates
Degnan Diagonals 5.9 FA 1970 Rick Sylvester, Matt Donohoe, Barry Bates
Application 5.9 FA 1971 Barry Bates, Peter Haan
Dromedary - The Hump FA 1971 Barry Bates, Bev Johnson
Dromedary Direct 5.10c FA 1971 Barry Bates, Matt Donohoe, Herb Swedlund
Five and Dime 5.10d FA 1971 Barry Bates
Lunatic Fringe 5.10c FA 1971 Barry Bates, Bev Johnson
Pink Dream 5.10a FA 1971 Barry Bates, Steve Wunsch
Supplication 5.10c FA 1971 Barry Bates, Bev Johnson
Vanishing Point 5.10d FA 1971 Barry Bates, Loyd Price
Anathema 5.10b FA 1972 Barry Bates
Last Resort Pinnacle, The, Center 5.10a FA 1972 Barry Bates, Rik Rieder
Lost Brother, Northwest Face 5.10c FA 1963 Al Macdonald, Jeff Dozier, Dave French, Gary Westernof FFA 1972 Barry Bates, Rik Rieder
New Dimensions 5.11a FA 1970 Mark Klemens, Jim Bridwell FFA 1972 Barry Bates, Steve Wunsch
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