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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Kinda harder to do when the person I need to forgive is ME. For some reason.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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L:
It kinda makes no difference what I think. What I was saying was I prefer a person express honest hatred for me rather than a fraudulent forgiveness based upon some personal agenda. Like by forgiving me, which they really don't do, they receive the freedom that comes with thinking I am less. When the US was in Korea we marginalized our adversaries by calling them "gooks". Why? Because we then did not have to answer questions before squeezing the trigger. I don't look for hatred. i just prefer it to fraud.
I think yourself and Karl are talking about a forgiveness that travels free. No strings. Great! I horned in because the word was starting to be used in a preprogrammed way that does not have meaning.
Jody:
No problem. Really.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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I really appreciate folks who shared a personal story. Thanks
I appreciate Jstan's apprehension about forgiveness but the point of what I was writing concerns the power of forgiving. Being Forgiven is a great gift but getting the crap out of our own systems is much better, and then you don't have to question any motives or sincerity.
In the Gospels, Jesus had some revolutionary teachings about forgiveness. He took it to a different level than many religions and philosophies, but it's true that the way the religion is practiced these days, many feel obligated to express a superficial forgiveness that seems to have an underlying since of judgement instead of love.
Better forgive that too. There will always be lots of misguided people in the world and we'll always be, at least to some degree, one of them. So the solution the frees everybody is to be undivided and whole, to love and forgive and go on the best way you can from there.
And yes, the ultimate result of pure forgiveness is forgiving yourself, which everybody needs to do very badly but some don't realize it yet.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:40pm PT
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Sammylee2, I hear your heart. Forgiving yourself is so often way harder to do than forgiving someone else. It can be done. I heard a wise person once say "Forgiving is Forgetting in the face of remembering."
They said to throw the thing that needed to be forgiven to the bottom of a big lake and put a sign there saying no fishing!
Email me if you ever need an ear to listen. Lynne
(Course they also said to ask God to forgive you first.)
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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I once(and only once, actually) had an utterly amazing experience by forgiving someone one time.
It came mixed in with my apologizing for my side of things, but what had happened was:
I was on a trip with a friend. Hawaii....He had won the trip on a radio contest, and since I had given him frequent flyer miles for vacations previously, he invited me to share this vacation.
We weren't really close friends and so we had never spent days together. Our quirks grated on each others nerves....and apparently mine grated so badly that my friend became nasty to me. More than once.
After a few caustic remarks I began lobbing back a few missiles on my own and, well - it didn't help matters. The air was full of tension and our attempts at politeness were obviously just that - attempts.
Finally, I realized that the trip was getting worse and would only continue downhill. I did some thinking and forgave my friend for being mean and petty.
Not out loud, to myself.
We happened to be driving down the road - that majestic coastline! - at the time. In a convertible, with the top down.
So, I forgave my friend. And then I spoke to him. I apologized for behaving badly to him. I said not a word about his behavior; I just cleaned up my side of things.
WHAT a FEELING!
I could not believe the lightness I felt. It was as if I were floating in the airstream along with that car. I literally felt high as a kite and free as a bird. There was NOTHING that was impossible, in that moment.
Incredible, really.
I've never had such an intense response to forgivenss/acceptance of my side/owning up and apologizing since. But then.....I am not really sure I have ever forgiven/apologized since then....
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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Thanks Lynne,
I'm working on it. Most of the stuff is BITD but it hangs tight in my head. I was a different person then but those people were trully hurt. And nothing I can do now will erase those harms.
Sometimes, I think that punishment is an answer, yet I often lack courage to accept that punishment. For some things, there is no statute of limitations ;-)
I've mangaged to do a few good things since but they are vague. My oldest crimes are crystal clear in my waking moments and dreams.
I do appreciate you and this forum, giving me a chance to at least let it come to the surface from time to time. But dangnation! This is a climber's forum. I'm going to RMNP in August! (denial, change of subject ;-)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 30, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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"The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver."
If that is true then doing it is a selfish act motivated by greed. I have never felt the desire to forgive for my own benefit. It has always been something that is given like a gift or something that is done to be humble and show acceptance that we are all simply human.
Dave
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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it's true. forgiveness is, ultimately, an inherently selfish act. welcome to the fearless and searching moral inventory.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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SammyLee2,
Glad to hear you're going to RMNP. Great things can be accomplished in the soul out in the country. No clanging bells to distract.
For many of us the hurt and pain we caused was BITD. It does need to be dealt with....if possible, for you and for them.
Hurts can't be erased, you can only offer from your heart, your sorrow for pain caused and ask for forgiveness. Of course I have no idea of circumstances. If this can even be done. But if you are able to do this go for it. You are not responsible for their response.
Finally, out in the beautiful creation you are going to .... listen....to the wind. God speaks in the wind if you truly desire to hear. Best, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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bvb- Yo are not serious, right? Lynnie
Happiegrrrl, thanks for sharing the great personal story. Looking forward to seeing you at the Lift. Just plain Lynne
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Dave,
I think one of the benefits of authentically forgiving someone is that you feel better, but truthfully--and think about this--if you say, "I'm forgiving so-n-so for being such an ass...now I'm going to feel better", you know in your heart of hearts that you've only gone through the motions of forgiving. And just like that pseudo-forgiving, you're going to have pseudo-good feelings.
We all fool ourselves all the time...but not really. Deep inside, you know when you're being real, and when you're being Memorex.
The experience Happi just spoke of is a fine example of authentically feeling that you've let go of the anger and judgment. You know the true feeling...and you know the imposter, too.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Sam,
One of the clever little tricks our egos love to play on us is telling us we're just too bad for forgiveness. We were too rotten or too selfish or whatever. It's how the ego controls you.
Nevermind that you were young and ignorant of repercussions, or messed up, or in emotional crisis, or whatever the reasons were for what you may or may not have done. (Which is another great ploy by the ego: It was so much worse than you thought!!!) You just need to keep asking yourself what is the payoff for you to continue to beat youurself up like this.
Ask yourself this question 100 times a day, everytime that "unforgiveable" thing comes up. Why would you willingly incarcerate your spirit in the chains of unforgiveness?
I don't know what your answer will be, but many people carry that burden to keep from looking at the truth of a past situation. Because sometimes the truth is so much more painful than blaming ourselves for being insufficient or whatever...so we create this smokescreen. To truly free yourself of this feeling of pending doom, this Sword of Damocles, you need to discover the truth of why you think you're so unforgiveable.
It will probably not be what you think.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The opposite of forgiving is holding resentments, which is a kind of soul death.
I don't think anyone ever achieves forgiveness. It's a kind of grace that happens once you've found your willingness to let things go. Every time we detach we move ahead, somehow.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2008 - 12:53am PT
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Dave wrote
""The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver."
If that is true then doing it is a selfish act motivated by greed. I have never felt the desire to forgive for my own benefit. It has always been something that is given like a gift or something that is done to be humble and show acceptance that we are all simply human.
Dave"
That doesn't necessarily follow. Are you saying that when you have forgiven as you say, that you didn't benefit as much as those whom you forgave?
And even things we do for our own greatest good aren't necessarily greed based.
And, ironically, when we free ourselves and become more loving and whole people, Society and the rest of the world benefits right along side us. Every bit of light makes the world brighter. There may be no better way to contribute to the world around us than to be an integrated, loving person at peace with themselves.
Peace
Karl
PS, I'm forgiving Sammy for going to RMNP (although I could have met him there perhaps)
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
riding bikes thru the night
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"Every time we detach we move ahead, somehow."
amen. you just can't carry all of that around
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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no lynne, not kidding. the type of forgiveness karl is refering to is all about achieving inner equilibrium, and really does not have much to do with making peace with others. how the forgiven reacts to your forgiveness is pretty much beside the point.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Karl - Another thought provoking post by Karl Baba.
Thank you for the boost, the guidance, and the seemingly endless flow of kindness.
My only hope is that I may one day embody some of these traits.
Thanks again
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
riding bikes thru the night
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BVB - why do the forgiven even need to know about it? some wouldn't even care. just cuz you've forgiven someone for something, doesn't mean you have to tell them.
it's like when people volunteer and then get pissy if they don't get acknolwedged for it. if you're being truly altruistic, why do you need for people to know?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Well, I agree with Mr. Long when he says, "I don't think anyone ever achieves forgiveness."
(achieve, to get or attain as the result of exertion - Merriam-Webster)
"It's a kind of grace that happens once you've found your willingness to let things go."
Grace is an interesting word...not much referred to or used in the vernacular nowadays. There are many connotations..but I think maybe mercy, pardon may be what Mr. Long suggests. Only guessing as I check Merrian-Webster.
An extremely interesting topic. One every human should be able to relate to in some context of their life on this planet.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2008 - 01:55am PT
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I brought it up because forgiveness is on the back burner for lots of people but it really can burden your life so it's worth taking a fresh look at.
We feel like we need to carry these grudges against our too-human parents, ex-lovers and an increasing list of wrong-doers, misunderstanders, and selfish short-sighted people but we really mainly hurt ourselves.
Then perhaps those parents die and an opportunity is at least partially lost forever.
The Sweetness of being free and unburdened is worth tasting. Take a bite and see if you want the whole meal. The older we get the bigger pile of crap we carry around with us until our feeling of age is just as much in psychological baggage as physical aches and pains.
and the mystery is, I know it but can't prove it, that the standard of forgiveness you apply to others is the standard of judgement that will be applied to you. You could call it basic psychology of judging yourself or listen to the sayings of Jesus when he says several things along the lines of "Judge not, lest you be judged"
Peace
Karl
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