Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
|
A wave of joy and hope just swept over me..... Thanks Minerals!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
|
Steve, even Obama would not bring our troops home NOW, you peacnik!
Can you at least be fuc-ing realistic?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
|
Armchair warrior circle jerk.
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
|
up2top,
Come on didn't you love to play with firecrackers as a kid? Do you dislike fireworks? I think the fetishism you speak of is far more innocent at its roots. Blowing sh#t up is cool. Killing people well that's an entirely different issue all together, and if that is what you think the fetishism is about well then I can see your point, but perhaps that isn't what it's about. Then again how would I know I'm the pyro around the campfire :)
kev
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
|
Okay Kev, well taken.
Then how about the utilities this war has destroyed?
The Iraqi's have maybe an hour of electricity a day, when it was much more available under Saddam. How many children have died due to disease because they drink unclean water because the treatment plants have been bombed inoperable, how many hospitals have no power to run lights for operating rooms, have no medications due to the sanctions the United States placed on
Iraq even before the shrub administration? Seems a pretty
uninhabitable place to me--especially if you get shot by some
blackwater dude that just wanted to go 'hunting' that day. . .
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
|
Any bets on how long it takes for this thread to hit 200 posts?
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:37pm PT
|
up2top:
Thankfully, other comments on this thread belie your "nope."
kev:
I think your point above about fetishism might have been meant for me rather than up2top. On the one hand you are right, there is nothing essentially wrong with being fascinated about guns (I own one, though I don't have a fetish for it and have not been shooting in years), though I would argue it does tend to be a more destructive fetish than, say, running. Nevertheless, my comments about the fetishistic aspects of the post were directed at the fetishistic attraction to violence and destruction itself. You may be a pyro around a campfire (all of us are I suspect), but there is a difference between tossing pine needles into the fire and tossing a cat into the fire...
Brian
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
|
In this thread we masturbate to pictures of guns, explosions and soldiers and then try to one up each other.
|
|
craig mo
Trad climber
L.A. Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
|
you left out the pictures of screaming widows, mothers
how about some audio you tough guy.
liberals vs. conservatives = stupid distraction.
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
|
Brian,
Yeah my bad, it was a response to you comment. I think as long as the attraction is towards the destruction it is fine. Ever watch a building being town down? It's amazing. The way a pressure vessel explodes and fails is utterly complex and interesting. The amount of pure force involved is mind boggling. It's is that interest that I think is fine. If you however link that with the violence then sure that's screwed up. The question is about the link between the two and who has, said link, and who doesn't. I think that there are very few (I hope at least) people on the Taco that link those things (maybe Juan and Jody (just joking you two)).
kev
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
|
Bluering, are you really sure we are over there killing murderers? You're a parent now, yes?
|
|
up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
|
"Hey Minerals and Bluering and the rest of you war cheerleaders:
Did you, or do you currently, serve in the military? (I did).
If no, why not? "
Wish I could have. I'm blind in my right eye.
I don't consider it cheerleading, though. Support for this mission? Yes. But I'd just assume we get it done and come home, too. It's certainly a better option than just leaving Iraq with an unstable national military that can't ward off a potential civil war.
Ed
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
|
Yes, Oppenheimer and Einstein were both involved in the development of the atomic bomb for the United States.
After seeing the first test Oppenheimer is said to have quoted
from the Hindu scripture from the Bhagavad-Gita, "I am become death, destroyer of worlds."
Both also encouraged Truman to demonstrate it's power to Japan
so they would surrender without having to experience it's devastation
|
|
up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
|
How about if we post some photos of the collateral damage caused by Sadr's Mahdi Army, or Al Queda operating in Iraq? Actually, it's very likely those photos are the direct result of those factions rather than the US Military.
Ed
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
|
"Putting aside the question of whether or not our current military actions are just, or justified, or effective, I wonder if anyone else is ill at ease with this sort of fetishism?"
I am. Like you and Will. That doesn't mean I don't love to blow the sh#t out of things. I was the team lead EOD specialist (EOD= Emergency Ordinance Destruct) for my team and wasted plenty of your taxpayer $ on C4 and Dynamite in OD green. Det Cord, Electric and regular blasting caps, fuses, the whole fun shebang: loved it. It was a job I was good at and enjoyed.
But yeah, this seems over the top to me.
|
|
L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
|
You also left out the photos of:
The mutilated bodies of babies (many the size and age of your own, Bluering)
Little children who loved to play
Young boys and girls who thought they had a future
Teenagers hoping to start a family one day
Adults who never did a thing to hurt anyone
Grandparents who had worked hard to make a living in a desert environment
Every purty smoke plume you're wanking to is hiding a hideous, foul truth: Corpses of innocent men, women and children.
We are no better than the terrorists, we just have shinier weapons.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
|
Ed, that's pretty naive if you're trying to suggest there isn't a shitload of collateral from our troops and security contractors.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
|
And a lot of the collateral damage from the Mahdi army is
the century old battle of Sunni against Shia. I'm not
saying it's right, just stating the fact.
It's interesting that Cheyney said after Desert Storm they didn't want to go all the way to Bhagdad--'if you break it you bought it'. . .
but he certainly was eager for it this time.
And how he lies that we're so much safer now. . .
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
|
kev,
I'll try to use "violence" and "destruciton" with the distinction you have laid out. I hope I'm not getting it wrong and putting words in your mouth.
We agree that the fetishism of "violence" (i.e., destruction visited upon living beings) is bad. I also agree that it is not too common.
The fetishism of "destruction" (i.e., breaking things or blowing them up, etc.) is not bad per se. Nothing wrong with admiring the power of a tornado, etc.
However, I lack the conviction that there is not a connection between destruction and violence. We all have some fascination with destruction; many people find avalanches, tornadoes, etc. compelling manifestations of the sublime. However, those who actually fetishize the destruction tend, in my experience, to become insensitive to violence as well (even when they do not, strictly speaking, fetishize violence itself).
All wars are failures. A war may be a necessary failure, as is the case in a war of self defense or a just war. Nevertheless, they remain failures, not something to glory in.
Brian
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!