Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jstan
climber
|
|
I dunno Jody. Seems to me you are a pretty famous photgrapher. If you aren't, then as you improve and take more and more good stuff - you will be.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
|
"I know. Let's have a spelling contest."
Val Kilmer
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
I no how to spell.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
-- is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
trad being the Gritstone like ethic? or 'ground up' ethic?
Gristone ethic would mean no bolts, thus no impact if no bolts go in. Top down or ground up is irrelevant in that no bolt goes in to have an impact on another and thus an 'ethical' import.
'ground up' by contrast, is merely a matter of style, but when it includes bolts, it has certain outputs vis a vis how the route turns out.
it seems that any bolt is merely a selfish act. So saying 'merely' is trying to get at something else.
A bolt is not necessary, ever. Thus it must be an expression of self. So is inherently selfish whether blaced by GU or TD methods.
As for noble, the exalted moral or character reference I would suspect eytomologically derives from a historical sense where those with power and influence were decided by rank and or title and thereby determined was was called 'noble.'
Maybe if we ask a different question; e.g. does the method of establishing climbs that have some bolt protection have some value other than self expression?
Noble from dictionary.com...
1. distinguished by rank or title.
2. pertaining to persons so distinguished.
3. of, belonging to, or constituting a hereditary class that has special social or political status in a country or state; of or pertaining to the aristocracy.
4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.
6. very impressive or imposing in appearance; stately; magnificent: a noble monument.
7. of an admirably high quality; notably superior; excellent.
8. famous; illustrious; renowned.
9. Chemistry. inert; chemically inactive.
10. Falconry. (of a hawk) having excellent qualities or abilities.
–noun 11. a person of noble birth or rank; nobleman or noblewoman.
12. a former gold coin of England, first issued in 1346 by Edward III, equal to half a mark or 6s. 8d., replaced in 1464 under Edward IV by the rose noble.
13. (in Britain) a peer.
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
I liked the shoot off better.
Jody, aren't you an officer?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
Jody = Poseur
Think Officer Dangle of Reno 911
He is just winding you guys up. He wouldn't know a rap bolter from a rap singer.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
Yeah... I'm driving up just to see how high your hem line is....
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Werner told me how one needs to behave here. I will do as he suggested. I will do as he suggested.
|
|
climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
"Maybe the back side of Half dome should have been ..."
... left alone in the olden days, so that 21st century Yosemite climbers had an almost pristene wall to establish new routes on, in the style and methods of their own day.
That's basically what happened, no? It was a generous gesture by all those old famous dudes, to leave such a big piece of rock for those of the future.
BTW, I think routes established by differing methods, right next to each other, mostly go totally unnoticed. I'm sure that most of us have climbed routes established on rap without even knowing it. Or caring enough to conduct an indepth inquiry first. We just look up, say 'that looks nice', and start climbing.
|
|
scooter
climber
fist clamp
|
|
Whats the deal with June 2nd? Is there going to be a scheduled brawl at El Cap bridge? Becareful some of the tough guys here may bring their 'biner brass knuckles or some other inventive climbing gear weapons which we have heard about on previous threads.
|
|
climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
I guess that's why we call them 'climbing' routes, instead of 'descending' routes.
Well said Riley. You make good points.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
radical said El Cap certainly wouldn't be El Cap anymore if there were bolt ladders all over it.. I thought it did have a bunch of bolt ladders? they are even named after some of those famous dudes who often get mentioned when the discussion turns to bolts.....
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
Parachuting to the top of Mt Everest!?
I suspect that is a first still waiting to happen.
Dropping stuff on top from over 30,000 feet would also be a noteworthy feat!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Someone has been hacking my computer and stole my plan for doing Everest in the hardest way! Get to be a billionaire, and invent a helicopter that can hover at 40,000 feet. Rather than risk getting snow on my wing tips I can just pee on the summit from the helicopter. I have contracted with Pixar for the movie showing me doing the E scale drawings for the copter. Going to be an exciting movie. Anyone interested in advanced sale tickets?
|
|
the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
|
|
shit i wish i wasn't 3000 miles away from the valley right now! June 2nd sounds like a good time to me..
I'm with the old school.. Coz and Bachar i got your back here in WV!!!!
you start at the bottom and go to the top. anything else is just a mere image of climbing..
either way, the sport has been fractured for 20 years and now with half dome the target of sport bolting, climbing is done. lets just call it like it is now: SPORT CLIMBING...
real climbing died in the 80's...
ks
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
They say making the first billion is the hard part!
If you have only made your first million, maybe you could spend a couple hundred grand on a balloon, with a grappling hook and an electric winch.
Snag the summit as you are blowing by, and then descend to the summit!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
Piton Ron asked: "So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
I think there can be elements of both in there. If you are trying to put up a ground up onsight FA and have a handdrill for that blank section, there is no question that it isn't a deeper game, a more challenging one as well. You can't stop and put a bolt where you need it, but where the route will dictate you can stance (or hook depending on where or who you are).
One you have done that route, per the predominant ethic today, no one else can add any bolts. The FA, often feeling grateful to have made it out alive, now feels "Proud" at their display of balls and luck at having survived and leave the route intact so that others can be aware of how good of a climber they were. In Coz's case, as he says, he can't or won't go back to try Southern Belle ever again unless a great climber leads all the pitches and he gets a toprope as it is too difficult, dngerous and frightening for him now.
Even Coz, by his own admission, can't climb a route which he, by climbing it as he did, dictated and forced that style on all others now. Whats the point of that?
Conversely, as jstan says, if you accept that all technology can be utilized, then just get a helicopter and fly to the top and you're done. Surely, as Robbins endlessly postulated, we need to draw a line in the "technological sand": Bacher, Kurt and Coz see that line and are trying to get everyone else to accept that point that they are detailing should be universally accepted. Kurt has rapbolted where rapbolting is appropriate and is the accepted dominant ethic. Not in the valley though.
I thought that having different areas keeping and maintaining different traditions to be a great idea. Growing up, the route on 1/2 dome, challenges that area's predominant historical ethic, and seems somewhat wrong for doing so. Doug has outlined his reasons they did that approach and top downed the upper part. It makes sense, and I believe it is a good thing for this route: yet that area's predominant historical ethic line in the sand did get crossed in a big way through such an act. In that I feel sadness and understand the loss which the folks who have climbed there a lot feel. It's a sad thing for sure.
Up next: helicopters? Meantime, Coz and no one else can - or wants to, try Southern Belle.
(PS, Jody, please stop being an ass.)
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 10:44am PT
|
I'm so glad that people are seriously considering the titled question of this thread. When I started it I feared that it might quickly degenerate into a polarized camp with champions actually assigning a place to join combat egged on by provocateurs from a state where family values means marrying your cousin (not that there's anything wrong with it).
Imagine my pleasant surprise to find you all in easy chairs wearing tweed jackets slowly swooshing your cognac snifters and pondering the ramifications of the other's positions.
If only Werner would put away that twinkie...
|
|
Tork
climber
Yosemite
|
|
If climbing is dead, I think the use of the power drill played a major role in it's death. I also feel that anyone who put up a route with a power drill, regardless of the style, contributed to it's demise.
For me it's still alive. Today I will probably be plugging in gear scared out of my mind and loving it, tomorrow enjoying some clip up(descending route) and loving that too. I will probablybe still be scared on the clip up, what a wuss.
Jeff
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I hate bolts. I'll all against them.
They cost money and it's work to drill em. What could be worse?
Peace
karl
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!